Great Southern Coins

The definition of "asking for trouble" is buying any raw coin off EBay.

Just don't do it.

 

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I don't bother with Ebay for any reason

 

GSC is bad news and most coin collectors already know that. They juice their pics, use sleight of hand and all kinds of tricks. The people who bid on their coins just don't know any better yet. Best to stay away from the company or you too, will learn an unwanted lesson.

 

Define "crook." Would you consider a fraudster a crook? Would you consider someone who routinely misrepresents the condition of an item and uses deceptive imaging to make a coin appear to be of much higher quality than it really is to sell overpriced dreck fraud? I am not saying any are applicable here, but...

 

RAW or certified?

 

No, but when coins are routinely relisted and the high bidder has a high bidding rate with the seller, then eye brows are raised and rightfully so. In some cases, it could be innocent. In others, maybe not (and this is for all eBayers and not targeted to any one of them). If a seller already exhibits questionable practices (in my opinion), then I am less likely to give that person the benefit of the doubt and my bid. YMMV.

 

If they are just taking nice photos of the coins in the best possible lighting conditions, then no. If they are photoshopping them to hide flaws, then I would say this borders on fraud. If they are shill bidding, then definitely.

 

By today's standards if any dealer is offering cleaned coins as gems they are engaged in a deceptive trade practice IMHO

 

When you take images with the goal of hiding problems you are not being honest.

 

Let's just say they've made imaging under the, ahem, "right lighting" an effing art form. Photoshop certainly can be used to doctor images, but it is far from the only way... simple technique can work "wonders".

 

Truth.

This seller needs no shill bidders. They have plenty of fans.

 

Although this takes them to the dark side of gray, there is nothing illegal about using technique to take good photos. Unethical, definitely.

For the sake of fairness I have a couple of coins with PCGS True Views that are also juiced. I'm not sure what lighting they used but I can't duplicate it at home.

I'm not defending GSC in the least and I refuse to bid in their auctions. We just need to be careful in using terms like "fraud". There are businesses everywhere that sell dreck to unsuspecting customers. If that were illegal in itself then we could never build enough prisons to house the crooks. And if stupidity were illegal then our country would have to be turned into a police state.

 

Libel

 

I am not representing that any specific entity has engaged in illicit behavior or necessarily committed a tort, but I will tell you the law (both civil and criminal) and you can draw your own conclusions:

Fraud is legally defined as having the following elements: (1) misrepresentation of a material fact; (2) with the intent to defraud and knowledge on the part of the accused that they were misrepresenting fact; (3) the misrepresentation was purposeful; (4) the victim believe the misrepresentation and relied upon it. In civil cases, it is a tort and punitive damages are available. Even when #2 (scienter/intent) is not there, it is constructive fraud and actionable civilly.

Acquiring money by false pretenses is also a crime. Fraud is also a crime and most jurisdictions use the same elements as the civil tort, but it is tried by a "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard of evidence as opposed to clear and convincing evidence (or other high civil evidentiary standard - some jurisdiction use different names, but it is the same).

So let's apply this to hypothetical eBay seller "X" (completely made up obviously). "X" repeatedly buys XF to AU coins and then whizzes them or cleans them to make them look uncirculated. "X" then uses deceptive imaging to further conceal evidence of manipulation/doctoring. "X" then sells the coins on eBay as "BU" knowing that the coins were altered and using misleading photographs to create the appearance that are of much higher condition and much more valuable.

Looking at elements:
#1 - check - The listing represents the coin is BU and the images are made to make the coin to appear high grade

#2 - check - You don't accidentally post deceptive photos and represent a coin as a higher grade

#3 - check - How could characterize it as anything else?

#4 - check - There are a number of clueless people who have bought duds from sellers like "X" only to learn that the coin is worth a mere fraction of what they paid because of gross overrepresentation.

So I leave it to you; has seller "X" committed fraud? I'll let you be the judge, jury, and executioner (well maybe not the last one)... In my opinion, seller "X" is violating the law.

And I am no saying that any specific seller is seller "X."

Edited: 5:16 EST to add quote I am responding to for clarity and context.

 

If true, then it is not libel. That is a question for a jury or other fact finder (i.e. judge). And my questions posited as generalized legal questions not directed at specific sellers do not qualify. Nor does an honest expression of opinion when clearly labeled as such without being represented as fact.

 

The weight of similar verbiage across all relevant fora over the span of nearly a decade now would tend to argue against the success of any new litigation. They long since surrendered the turf, whether they deliberately juice their imagery or not. Why do they need to care? They're making bank and have a broad base of repeat customers.

Frankly, I'd do business with them if they had something I liked after mentally filtering the imagery. Never heard anything ill about their returns process.

 

Everyone has heard the phrase "low information voters" and we all know what that means. Well, likely that phrase about ignorance probably extends to all walks of life including coin collecting. They see the bright shiny coin on eBay from what seems to be a reputable seller, they buy it, the coin is as advertised on the photo, and so they windup leaving positive feedback on it.

In my opinion, some or possibly many of the customers eventually realize what they bought, and then stop being customers. But there are always others who grow up and become of coin collecting age and interest to take their place as low information coin collectors.

 

Also keep in mind, its not that hard to acquire an uneducated fan base. Simply look to the TV shucksters who keep selling over-inflated coins. They MUST have a fan base or they wouldnt be on the dang television every. single. day. So that proves the point that there are plenty of uneducated buyers out there.

What makes the venue of ebay so different? Smart collectors tend to flock to the independent dealer sites, the major auction houses like HA, and so forth. We get plenty of threads here asking where folks get such good deals on coins relative to ebay, so clearly they are uneducated about better venues.

 

But they are doing questionable things if not fraudulent things. Look at the most recent negative feedback. Look at feedback for the 1918 D Walker (ebay #371573022938). This coin sold on ebay as a BU+ coin, was submitted to NGC, was determined to be AU Improperly Cleaned, was returned to GSC, who then cracked it out and relisted same as a BU+ coin (ebay #291749247248). You can find this coin on NGC's website: https://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/2685274-001/.

 

But they ARE doing questionable things if not fraudulent things. And none of this is ridiculous. Look at the most recent negative feedback. Look at feedback for the 1918 D Walker (ebay #371573022938). This coin sold on ebay as a BU+ coin, was submitted to NGC, was determined to be AU Improperly Cleaned, was returned to GSC, who then cracked it out and relisted same as a BU+ coin (ebay #291749247248). You can find this coin on NGC's website: https://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/2685274-001/.