"Cleaned" coins--how much of a loss?

Sorry to hear about your problem. After reading one of your follow up posts, I got the impression that you purchased a seated dollar from this same dealer and had a similar grading experience. If that is true, why did you buy from him again?

Based on your above comment, are you going to try to tone the coins and resend them in hoping for a straight grade? Or will you then try to sell them raw?

2 years ago, I had a dealer tell me something at a show that resonates to this day. He said, be careful buying coins raw, all those that should be graded by a TPG have already been sent in. When I view a raw coin, I'm already assuming it has issues and examine it from that viewpoint.

 

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I have found MANY nice coins raw, and made a lot of money getting some graded. So take that with a grain of salt. Of course, I bought them from your average joe seller on ebay, for a good price, not a dealer trying to say they were high grade, etc.

 

Why did I trust the guy? I bought a few seated dimes from him that did grade at ICG and thanked him for them afterwards, thought I would give him another try. Or as one of the show managers said he has a "sterling" "spotless" reputation. Not really; subsequently I have spoken to some vest pocket dealers who don't do any business with the guy and why.

 

I certainly could be wrong here, but my impression is that the OP saw in the coins what he wanted (he's been here long enough to know, if he didn't before, not to blindly trust a number written on a flip) and was hoping to make money at the other fellow's expense. There's nothing wrong with the last part, of course, but one cannot rightfully expect to be handed all the upside while still being able to come back on the dealer for any down unless agreed to beforehand. If one wants the benefits of buying raw, they had better be willing to shoulder the risks as well, at least if buying at venues other than ebay where stupidity is rewarded. Buying raw with the plan to submit and reap profits is a gamble, plain and simple. One doesn't walk inot a casino and only after emptying their wallet run up to the desk demanding a refund, so why do so many think the equivalent is acceptable when it comes to coins?

 

There is so much wrong in the above quote that it is really mind-boggling to think that a human being could type that with what has gone before. "Trying to make money at the other fellow's expense"? How about just honest straight forward grading not deceptive incompetent raw coin shilling having the audacity to put a numerical grade on his 2x2s? You rely on an expert who holds himself out at shows as knowledgeable about grading standards and get defrauded and want to make them accountable with none falling on the seller? My guess is there are many people on the coin boards who play the same game on ebay and at shows and are worried at the push-back, both information wise and legally. And there should be a lot of push back by all the consumers who have trusted "experts" without getting any recourse. There are many others out there who have been ripped off by these individuals and they should band together and fight back with the tools at our disposal.

 

I was fishing for what you paid for each of these two coins. Now I guess there is a third coin involved. Did the dealer have a price on the 2x2s? Did he discount that price? I can't blame the dealer for anything without more information. I don't know if he sold them to you at the price of a cleaned coin or a no problem 63.

 

OP included an attachment in his first post with the prices either paid or listed. Seated Liberty was 440 and Barber was 215.

 

The dealer had written on the coins the grades he believed they were; the Barber he called MS63, the Seated dime either MS63 or 64 and another one MS64 that NGC graded 62. No "as is" or "cleaned" or anything else indicating any problems. I can understand one or two grade differentials. But if someone is self-grading coins they have responsibility associated with that, if they just wrote BU or AU and no number then the responsibility is a lot less. If you sell a car "as is" generally buyer assumes all responsibility. If you represent it as no problem and major mechanical issues develop soon after not due to the buyer, then some responsibilities follow.

 

Give it up man

 

So he chose to pay over retail even at the purported grades.

 

"So he chose to pay over retail even at the purported grades."

All his coins were priced "below" GS bids; so the Barber must have been called MS64, as well as the 1857. I remember looking them up there. He had been right on some Seated 10cs he called AU, so I figured he knew how to grade the MS coins.

 

What is mind boggling, sir, is that someone who certainly knows better is so steadfastly refusing to take any real responsibility for his own mistake. Your posting history is here for all to see, and just a few minutes spent scanning through with undoubtedly prove this.

Does this fellow actually put himself out there as this grading guru, or are you labeling him an "expert" simply to suit your present needs? More sellers should be held accountable, yes, but so too should more buyers, particularly educated and experienced ones like yourself.

 

I "took responsibility" by taking the guy at his word and acted in good faith then in submitting the coins for grading and making him aware of the results and then getting his dismissive comments. He did not accept any responsibility for either incompetent or disingenuously grading coins numerically far from accepted standards. And as case law has shown with outfits like Numisgroup who do the same thing yet on a much larger scale the law sides with the customers.

 

Why did you not buy graded coins if you wanted a certain grade and were spending that kind of money?

 

I was looking for coins at the show that were not available certified.

 

But why buy ungraded coins for graded money? Just wait until you find them graded. Try ebay. You obviously cannot tell cleaned from uncleaned, so seeing the coin in hand is of no help to you. Just find a good price on a graded on ebay, and get it.

 

You must be kidding! Because if not, the BS is getting very deep and to the point we're soon going to need full body suits to keep from smothering in it.

And neither are you! Considering you had the coins in hand and certainly examined them prior to purchasing, does this mean you are "incompetent" and "disingenuous" as well?

Then sue him. Sue everyone who dares to slap a number on a flip that does not conform to the standards du jour of whatever TPG you chose to use on a given day. Don't bother using your own eyes or acquired knowledge, just keep ignoring what's right in front of your face and continue focusing on the meaningless, because that's exactly what you're doing here. If you were a newbie who didn't know any better, I could certainly understand your feelings and would have sympathy for you, but you're not and that's the key here. You keep pointing the finger and slinging mud at this guy yet are seemingly oblivious to the FACT that YOU must have AGREED with his grading at the time of purchase. Therefore, you as the able and knowledgeable individual you are, bear a great deal of the responsibility for the unfortunate results.

Did you ask the guy to guarantee his grades, or even try to work out some sort of agreement in case they didn't come back at a certain level upon submission? I'm guessing not, and for good reason; you were not buying as a collector just wishing to add to his collection, but were chasing that upside, and considering you saw only what you wanted to, chasing rainbows as well.

 

Thanks. I missed the link. Auction results show these two coins selling at $400 and $200 in 63 on average, already graded by PCGS or NGC.

 

I agree full hearted .... fair priced ms63 add shipping and grading fees , most often cheaper bet , and safer bet , just buy em slabbed not raw

 

Did you pay a price reflective of the value of a 63 or did you get a "bargain" with the discounted value already built into the price?