New-Looking for opinions-1921 Morgan Dollar?

Hi, I'm new to the forum as a participating member but have googled numerous times and landed here to view information over the recent months, but really wanted to do my due diligence in researching before I posted I have three coins that I'm curious to have some opinions on so I thought I'd post this one first (the others are an 1887/6 -O Morgan Dollar, and a 1909 VDB that I'll post later).

This one is a 1921 Morgan Dollar and after umpteen hours of research and looking at the VAM website (SOO many VAM categories for this year), I'm still lost as to the potential and grade what VAM(s) to assign? On the positive side, I've learned to really love these Morgan Dollars!

What I "think" I have figured out is the following; on the obverse, the striking appears strong and detailed, on the reverse there are 16 berries (D2 reverse), strong feather details and I think there may be some die breaks, lines or cracks, but not sure which kind and there is also a notable mark between the right star and wreath. It seems to have good reflection in person but not sure how deep? I did learn to do the cartwheel effect test, and the light moves back and forth clockwise and looks like there's luster on higher points?

In the end I (even though this is my beginnings with coins), after my fourth type of loupe (trial and error), I really know nothing for sure, so this is my story and I am putting it out there to you all, hoping to get enough input to know if I should pay to have the coin certified? Thank you for listening )

 

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I can't help with the VAM. They drive me crazy trying to figure out. I would not send the coin in for grading. The fees would be about the value of the coin.

 

One of the things that got me turned off to 1921 Morgan VAM's was when LVA started attributing "Squiggles". To me, this is a big joke.

Like Larry said, it's not worth submitting for grading. It would have to grade about MS66 to make it worth it, and your coin is about MS63. There were 40 million struck in Philly, so it's not like they are scarce.

Chris

 

Have you purchased the Redbook yet? If you are just getting started, this very common Morgan (44M + mintage) coin is not a good choice...imho.

 

No,this coin CAN be a good choice, problem is, 1921 morgans are THE hardest to vam.
Especially the D2 reverse, thats why LVA went on a scribbles frenzy. On most coins, there is no other way to attribute. Problem is, if you are using scribbles only to attribute a coin then odds are the coin isnt worth a hoot. OP, if you cant find your coin here: http://www.vamworld.com/1921-P+Dots
Then it probably isnt a vam worth wasting your time trying to attribute imo

 

I appreciate the opinions and input, thank you! I wanted to make sure I wasn't missing anything obvious to someone else's trained eye, mainly due to that little mark over the right start on the reverse (between star and wreath), as it's listed as one of the 1921 Proof VAMS. After many, many hours of research and looking at other comparable 1921 Morgan's I don't see this mark on any unless they are a proof., like off the Heritage Auction site? You just never know so I had to throw it out there

Outside of that, I was hoping for a high enough grade to be able to auction, because it really is a gorgeous coin and a lot of them I see are really dinged and scratched, plus this one reflects light and has luster?

 

Does it have the other markers as well?
I assume you are refering to the chapman proof? I thought you were talking about the die crack earlier.. I believe the other pick-up is a dot between the I & B in pluribus iirc

 

It looks like a nice coin, probably 63 or 64, but not worth grading unless you can send it with someone's bulk order. As has been mentioned, 1921 can be a b**ch to attribute. I've seen hundreds of them for this purpose, as I attribute coins for people, and they take me longer than most. I don't see anything in particular on the pictures that I would say makes it necessary to attribute, so I'd probably look at the "scribble scratches" by the eagle''s right foot (viewer's left). Some people like to attribute these just so they know what they are or because they're seeing how many different ones they can get, but most VAM collectors are content ignoring these.

 

Yes, thank you HeavyCam, the Chapman proof is the one I was thinking of, it has that mark over the star. Here is what I found on the Heritage site listing (review of an auction coin against the known markings).
Heritage Diagnostics: A short line points from rim to third star, and ends about 1 mm away; two die polish lines up from rim to first 1; hollow around Morgan's initial M (from overpolished die). Reverse dash between right star and wreath, touching neither; another, fainter, slanting up from left upright of I(CA); a third between S(T) and I of [IN], touching neither; faint scattered die striations around UN AM RICA.
Applying markings to mine?:
Obverse
1. I believe mine looks like it has a hollow around Morgan's initial (see pic below)? The only other one I have to compare it to is an 1887 Morgan Dollar.
2. There are two lines from the rim, at a slight angle and parallel to each other pointing up towards the 1. On mine there looks like there could be a third, a little farther over as well.
3. The short die line from the rim pointing to star three - If the third star is counted from left to right (starting at E. Pluribus), then there is a lighter line from rim up towards the third star
Reverse
1. There is short line a little darker in color, slanting upwards at a left angle starting near the top of the I (CA). Starts just below the top of the I vs. the left upright of the I.
2. There is a line from the top the I of (IN GOD) that goes at a leftward angle up to the S (T). Mine may actually touch the S vs. touching neither.
3. There are groupings of fine die scratches between and above the U and N, between and below the A and M and above and below RICA.
4. As discussed above, there is a reverse dash between right star and wreath, touching neither.

 

Messydesk, thank you for the estimated coin grade, I appreciate it as trying to figure out grading seems so intricate at this point to me and on top of it, Morgan Dollars seem to be in their own little niche. The VAM thing is overwhelming for me, especially with the 1921's..my brain starts to hurt a few VAMS into it

 

Out of curiosity I looked at VAMworld.com to see how ludicrous 1921 is.... and there appear to be ~200 VAMs for 1921-P alone. Wowsa! Talk about eye strain.

http://www.vamworld.com/1921-P+VAMs

 

... which is why there was a Top 100 list developed in 1996. Much more gentle introduction into VAMs.

 

Haha so true, the top 100 cuts it down to 98 - 99, which still constitutes 18 VAM links, not including multiple VAM's to identify within VAMS and then there's the whole reeding topic, for which I lasted about 5 minutes on trying to decipher the differences ..whoah!

98.
1921-P
VAM-41A
Pitted Reverse. Formerly VAM-41/1A

1921-P
VAM-41B
Pitted Reverse, Die File Lines Lower Reverse

99.
1921-P
VAM-2
Infrequently Reeded, revised into VAMs 13, 25 ,26, 27, 28

1921-P
VAM-2A
Infrequently Reeded, revised to VAM-27A

1921-P
VAM-4
Infrequently Reeded, Doubled N of IN

1921-P
VAM-13
VAM-13A
Infrequently Reeded, Doubled Stars & Date
Infrequently Reeded, Doubled Stars and Date, Die Gouges ST, Scribbling Die Scratches

1921-P
VAM-25
VAM-25A
Infrequently Reeded, Doubled Jaw & Left Stars
Infrequently Reeded, Doubled Jaw & Left Stars, Die Gouge S, Scribbling Die Scratches

1921-P
VAM-26
VAM-26A
Infrequently Reeded, Tripled Chin & Nose Tip
Infrequently Reeded, Tripled Chin/Nose, Beveled Denticles, Scribbling Die Scratches

1921-P
VAM-27
Infrequently Reeded, Tripled Neck

1921-P
VAM-27A
Infrequently Reeded, old 2A, die flakes above ST in STATES

1921-P
VAM-28
VAM-28A
Infrequently Reeded, Doubled Jaw Front
Infrequently Reeded, Doubled Jaw Front, Scribbling Die Scratches, Beveled Denticles

1921-P
VAM-29
VAM-29A
Infrequently Reeded, Tripled 9 & Stars
Infrequently Reeded, Tripled 9 & Stars, Beveled Denticles

1921-P
VAM-44
Infrequently Reeded, D2A rev, Horiz polishing line thru right wing

 

Yea unfortunately, i dont think that is from the same die as chapman coins. You seem to have picked up general basics to vamming pretty quick, ill give you that.
Even the top experts dont match every single morgan with its vam #
The `21 issues from all 3 mints can be fruitful once you learn which coins to look for out in the wild..Not just top 100, but different coins with major die breaks, like the unicorn D, capped R and pompadour T to name a few. I can spot these from a mile away at a big show, and they are often overlooked and undervalued

 

Thank you!

 

Your post reminds of something I've wanted to do for a long time..... trade away my 1921 P Morgan. lol
Thanks for the help!

 

Got some macro pics (yayy!) Just thought I'd post and share the updated shots for fun

 

The scratches on the face and above and below "in God we trust" would make your coin not gradable no matter what VAM it might be.

I'll sound like a jerk here but if you have to look at dots, dimples and squiggles, who cares.

 

Actually, I appreciate your comment as I would have just guessed they were polish lines that don't affect grade? I'm constantly learning here

 

And who's 'squiggles'? The clown?