Label Desirability

Some folks want to try and preserve a historical record of where TPG's came from, what they graded, and where they might possibly be going.

Few folks realize that, when TPG's started, not EVERYTHING could be submitted for grading as there were limitations on what could be submitted.

 

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That last statement needs to be qualified in that the US Mint has yet to produce an MS70 coin that was intended for circulation as most of the stuff popping out of the coining chamber is junk.

Coins produced specifically for collectors is a different story with higher tonnage presses and better handling processes to minimize damage to coins. 70's should be expected on Silver, Gold, and Platinum Eagles.

Specialty Sets such as the recent Kennedy's should have all been in the upper grading ranges.

 

Better yet, why even buy them graded? Just get them from the US Mint and slap them into a Dansco and save your money!

The problem is the "perception" that a graded coin is special in some way. The reality is that it's just one of thousands of others that are just like it.

Literally every single coin in a TPG's Slab has the potential for being a huge loser! By that I mean, what happens if the reputation of the TPG suddenly gets trashed over some scandal involving grade fixing? Virtually every coin in one of those slabs immediately loses value since the reputation of the TPG becomes meaningless.
Look at ACG and the tumble from grace that it took.

 

Yep, I look forward to the day the TPG'ers collapse and NUMISMATISTS once again rely on and have faith in their abilities to grade coins.

 

That's not quite how I remember it Doug.

I remember that PCGS used to assign MS and PR70 to Silver Eagles but once the spotting began to rear its ugly head, PCGS mad e it policy that NO Silver Eagles would receive an MS/PR70 due to the instability of the coins and the grade guarantee. Spotted MS70 SAE's were seriously cutting into their profit margins.

NGC, on the other hand and for whatever reason, didn't seem to have problems with SAE's developing spots after being slabbed so they continued churning out the MS70 SAE's.

This in turn, began to cut into PCGS;s profit margins since NGC was getting a majority of the bulk submissions for Silver Eagles.

After a few years, PCGS bit the bullet and rescinded that "No 70's" policy even allowing coins graded under that policy to be resubmitted for reconsideration.

But, it really doesn't matter since the MS/PR70 grade has been sooooo diluted over the years, it's practically meaningless anymore. Buyers should never ever pay anymore than $10 bucks over the price of a comparable MS69 collectors coin. If they do spend more, they'll regret it unless they can find some other sucker to buy into the dream.

 

The recent glut of 70's reminds me of how in recent years there are more and more perfect SAT scores. Back when you guys/gals were in high school (1970s and 1980s) there were only about ten 1600s each year. Last year there were nearly two thousand 1600s. Why? Are kids getting smarter? Nope. The SAT was rescaled in 1995.

In other words, the subjects getting graded weren't getting better; the standards were lowered. Perhaps this is the same with coins.

Edit: about a million people were taking the SAT annually back in the '70s and '80s and about 1.7 million took it last year, so it isn't like there's 200x as many people taking it now.

 

HUH? Historical "records" of pop numbers?

Completely unavailable unless you kept a published copy which used to be produced by PCGS and/or kept screen shots.

There is really no way to tell when a coin was graded so, for me, historical records from Coin Forums is where I go.

Here is PCGS's "Official" word on the subject:

http://www.pcgs.com/News/Pcgs-Guidance-For-Ms-70-Silver-American-Eagles

Here's a thread from 2004 on CU where the poster got an MS70 2004 Silver Eagle. Scroll down and take note of Wondercoin's response where he states:

"Congratulations on the MS70.

It is my understanding that PCGS will generally NOT grade a MINT STATE Silver Eagle in the MS70 grade now for the simple reason that the coins "turn in the holder". The processes utilized at the Mint in the striking of these MS Silver Eagles appears to result in the coins "turning", in some cases before they are even removed from their shipping packaging upon shipment from the Mint. This is not the case, however, with Proofs. Why - I have no idea.

So, technically, I believe that even if a coin has mark-free surfaces, it will not support an MS70 grade if it has spots on it. If, and when, the US Mint alters its production methods and the coins come out "spot-free", I suspect there would be many more MS70 Silver Eagles at PCGS. Perhaps 2004 is that year - time will tell.
Wondercoin "

Since MS70 SAE's were a rare sight, the prices skyrocketed and each one that turned cost PCGS serious money in the Grade Guarantee Department.

The 2004 SAE reported in this thread:
http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=275768

eventually turned or somewhat turned as the cert number is currently reported as an MS69. http://www.pcgs.com/cert/21517396

I have no idea what the poster sold the coin for or if it was even sold. I just know that it used to be a 70 and now its not.

The only way to counteract the "grade guarantee" costs associated with minimal MS70 Silver Eagles and still keep up with NGC in the grading arena, was to grade a bunch of them and eventually dilute the value. This was a plan that was well executed for a minimal loss.

Your "Bottom Line" statement is exactly correct. To the point that it's my belief that MS/PR70 are pretty much guaranteed for certain submitters with a few given out randomly to small time submitters.

The net result is that MS/PR70 has become as meaningless a grade as MS/PR69. The ONLY relevance the grade has is with regard to TPG Registry Sets.

 

Could very well be but then, if ANYBODY actually believes that it anything other than the power of the dollar, then they are just fooling themselves.

EVERYTHING is about the almighty buck from how to make them to how to keep them and continue getting them.

The TPG's realize the value of the buck and balance themselves on that fine line of reality and perception.

 

Are you kidding me? They screwed up this whole hobby for that almighty buck. They made it into a commodities market. I have more fun trading pork belly futures and short grain sales now than I do buying coins.

 

The same type pay more for "designer" duds= brainwashed losers.....

 

Sorry, Fast Eddie, the hobby has ALWAYS been screwed up for the almighty dollar. From the first days - go read about early auctions and FIST FIGHTS in the 60s. The OMG we can stuff these things into IRAs in the 80s.

It's just that the TPG garbage has taken the effect to a new level.