Is this an example of market grading?

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by Seattlite86, Jun 29, 2015.

  1. Coinchemistry 2012

    Coinchemistry 2012 Well-Known Member

    I agree with this.
     
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  3. Seattlite86

    Seattlite86 Outspoken Member

    At the risk of letting this escalate, I do feel like you are correct on this. I'm trying to learn to grade and expand my knowledge on strikes as I go. I've seen all TPGs grade what I would consider spot on and each have had at least one coin that I was in disagreement with. Of course, that's why they say buy the coin not the slab. :)
     
  4. Kirkuleez

    Kirkuleez 80 proof

    Not that learning to grade is a bad thing, but when dealing with these early US coins, grading can get tricky because of many factors. Strike quality, originality (cleaned/tooled/filled holes/etc.), rarity, adjustment marks vs. scratches, eye appeal the list goes on and all come into play. These coins have the experts debating over ten point swings, but that's what subjective grading is all about, nothing wrong with that. But for modern coins, the above factors come into play much less frequently and are subsequently much easier to grade. I would suggest that you pick a series of modern coins and study how they are graded. The finer points could always be learned as you go, but learning a modern series will teach you the fundimental basics of grading and will transfer to all other series of coins no matter how old or where they were produced. My grandfather taught me to grade my pocket change every night and I've been doing it now for over thirty years. I feel that I'm a pretty descent grader and have done pretty well over the years with raw purchases.
     
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  5. Seattlite86

    Seattlite86 Outspoken Member

    I think your advice is very sound. I have several US series that I've been working on and I use my ANA Grading Standards book like the Bible (well, the way a good Christian uses the Bible). I feel confident in identifying the grade I'm searching for my US Type Set (XF) but older coins and gold are much harder. I'm nowhere close to being ready to delve into the early silver coins but I saw that piece online and decided I could learn a thing or two.
     
  6. eddiespin

    eddiespin Fast Eddie

    Who's saying that? Not me. I'm shaking the confidence everybody seems to have in these TPGs (yes, throw in the rest, they're all in the same alphabet soup), if you really cut through it. That definition says the market rules the grade, and that's the market according to PCGS. It's a fact, just as the rush-hour traffic I'm going to face in about ten minutes is a fact. I'm not condoning it. I'm saying, understand what these plastic "grades" are. That's all they are.
    I hear you. Believe it. As one dinosaur to another...
     
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  7. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Can you even count high enough to list the number of times that sentiment has been expressed on this forum ?

    Becoming ? It's ancient history. Here's a link to a thread from 11 years ago - https://www.cointalk.com/threads/the-big-four.2747/

    It's been that way for as long as I can remember. So how did that happen ? I think it's pretty easy to understand, if, stress if, you lived through it and saw it firsthand. And if, you have a good enough memory to actually remember what did happen. And what happened was in the beginning the TPGs earned the confidence of the collectors and dealers by grading coins, for the most part, correctly and accurately.

    It took a few years for that confidence to be earned, and once it was, word spread, the best way it can spread, word of mouth. I can distinctly recall going to an NRA national convention in 2000 to receive an award. And no that has nothing to do with coins of course, but one evening while there I went to the hotel bar for drinks and dinner. I sat at table with 4 or 5 other guys also at the convention. None of us knew each other of course but we were all there for the same reason so we had dinner together. During dinner I brought up the subject of coins, and wouldn't ya know it, all of the others also collected coins. Then the subject of the TPGs came up, and it was unanimously agreed by all of the others that as far as they were concerned PCGS was THE grading company. Well that led to an interesting discussion that evening.

    The point is that was 15 years ago, and at that time the confidence that many collectors had in the TPGs was patently obvious. And it was so strong it was rarely questioned. I'll even readily admit that about 90% of the time I agreed with the TPG grades.

    But it wasn't long after that that things changed, for me and a few others anyway. I began to see more and more coins where I didn't agree with the TPG grade. But most others still did. Why ? Because of the previously earned confidence. If the TPG said this was the grade, then this was the grade, because it had been for previous years. But as that link I posted above indicates, I was not the only one questioning TPG grades in 2004, more than a few dealers and knowledgeable collectors were as well.

    So anyway here we are today, and that confidence in the TPGs that was hard earned all those years ago has been passed on, again by word of mouth, articles and the like, and is now being blindly accepted by those who either have no experience from 20 years ago, or have forgotten it. But make no mistake, the TPGs and the way they grade coins is NOT the way it was 15-20 years ago. And more and more people have become aware of that, still are becoming aware of that.

    So the confidence in the TPGs is dwindling, grades are being questioned by more and more people. CAC came along in 2007 because of a growing lack of confidence in TPG grades. But still there are those who blindly accept them, just not as many as there used to be. So no it's not "becoming". It's more of "it used to be". And hopefully, in the not to distant future, it will change.
     
    medoraman likes this.
  8. medoraman

    medoraman Supporter! Supporter

    Btw Eddie, I apologize for the tone of my earlier post. It came out harsher than I intended. I still believe there is a theoretical difference between true market grading and rare date grade bumps, but I also see your point how today it hardly matters, since so many simply do not care what the coin actually IS, only what the TPG says ABOUT it.
     
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