Just got the elusive 1916 Barber Half....

Meh; so-so.

 

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1933 Double Eagles reached the cashier. 1964-D Peace dollars never did. That is according to the government press release and a person who was actually there when the coins were minted.

So that is a huge difference. There was no opportunity for someone to purchase one. Of course, the government would issue the statement so as to cover all hypothetical scenarios.

The old story of how Mint employees could purchase a 1964-D Peace Dollar at the end of the shift has never been corroborated by any specific witness. What actually happened is that Mint employees were allowed to purchase the new 1964-D Kennedy half dollar. And somehow many years later that was confused with the 1964-D dollars.

But from a legal perspective, the government itself claims that none of the 1964-D Peace Dollars were ever issued or released. An official government statement will always trump private hearsay.

 

Right.

If you actually "believe: this stuff, then you've been drinking w-a-a-y too much koolaide!

PCGS, in it's bottomless source of practical wisdom, has included the 1964-D Peace Dollar as the number 1 coin in its "Top 100 Modern Coins" registry set. A virtually impossible coin to obtain!

Coming in at Number 3: 1974 Aluminum Lincoln Cent! Virtually impossible to buy on the open market. I expect that come next year, they'll throw the 1974-D Aluminum Cent into the mix.

Coin Number 4: A one of a kind 1976 No S Type 2 Proof Eisenhower Dollar in 40% Silver no less. An impossible find and likely not to go on successful sale anytime soon since it's currently way overpriced. But since the coin belongs to one of the PCGS Board of Experts, I expect that when it does go on sale, it'll fetch a pretty penny. Why? Because PCGS Says so! That's why! And lets not forget that the coin originally sold for about 70 Grand yet today, with no sales to base a price on, it sits with a $450,000 valuation in the Price Guide (formulated by the subject PCGS "expert").

Coming in at the number 5 spot: 2000-W 22kt Gold Sacagawea Proof Dollar! Another virtually impossible coin to obtain! All examples are locked in the vaults at Ft. Knox! Someday they might be released but I wouldn't count on it. Sure, the Treasury has the authorization to produce any gold coin they wish, which is how these came into existence, but the Treasury Department also got its hands slapped for producing these rarities.

So, what we have is a "Fantasy" Top 100 Modern Coins Registry set which totally smacks of favoritism since it leaves out some key coins.

So, if you want to elevate PCGS to the position of GOD in the third party grading environment, you're certainly welcome to do so but this fellow ain't about to step up to that koolaide drum.

"Expertise" in coins comes from buying and selling. Not reporting auction prices and writing stories design to "entice".

 

No, it has not been established that PCGS actually believes that a 1964-D Peace Dollar exists. Maybe they do, maybe they don't. Either way, their $10,000 reward is a good marketing/advertising tactic.

If you actually do the slightest amount of due diligence before plopping down thousands of dollars on a "1964-D" Peace Dollar, the first thing you might do is go check the PCGS web site for information regarding their "$10,000" reward. If you search the PCGS web site for "1964-D Peace Dollar", the top article that appears in the search list is this one which shows a picture of my "1964-D" over-strike:
http://www.pcgs.com/News/1964-d-Peace-Dollars-Do-They-Really-Exist
The article states:
"... someone recently came out with Fantasy 1964-D Peace dollars by striking them using their own coin press and making them resemble a genuine Mint product."

The second PCGS article in the search list is the one about the $10,000 reward:
http://www.pcgs.com/top100/reward.aspx
The article fails to mention that a genuine "1964-D" Peace Dollar would be illegal to own. The article itself could potentially be more damaging to a layperson than any replica coin.

 

Nope. Nope.

The 1933 Double Eagles cannot be used as a reference since it is a known FACT that some 1933 Double Eagles made it out of the US Mint. The US Mint has stated the no 1964-D Peace Dollar ever made it out of the US Mint. It was never released nor even counted.

IMO, there simply is no comparison and I won't get into the particular arguments about my stance.

 

Some interesting comments regarding the GOD of all TPG's.

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=8672506&gonew=1#UNREAD

And this is in no way intended to "disparage" PCGS. Only to let folks know that not everything is at it seems in the Land of Oz.

 

Double Post.

 

You mean that PCGS is wrong? That sounds likely heresy to me...

(Someone please post the satirical portrait of PCGS staff and David Hall during the "Last Supper".)

 

In criticizing PCGS, this is the best you can do? You link to a thread that says that both NGC and PCGS suck at attributions? What about reneging and/or retroactively amending the copper color guarantee? What about refusing to honor a coin overgraded by more than 3 points (in this case a MS70 business strike Ike) under the guarantee and tortuously interfering with its sale at auction by pulling its cert no. and publicly shaming the coin in an attempt to avoid liability? What about charging the 1% guarantee premium based on PCGS price guide value when the same is not used for payouts under the guarantee? Moreover, is this not a conflict of interest? What about the bulk submissions, where I believe it was you who stated this, that you paid more for certain grades? What about the way that Don Willis parades around as an arrogant tyrant, banning anyone who doesn't kiss his butt even when it means kicking off true experts like Roger Burdette (RWB) and Mark Feld?

 

Apparently you still don't understand the point that was being made regarding the legal system. It would all come down to the beliefs of an average reasonable person. What would that lay person reasonably conclude lacking expert knowledge, that is what would truly matter. Would someone having no knowledge of Carr 1964-D Peace dollars or 1964 Franklin half dollars conclude the coins were genuine U.S mint issues. I'd be willing to bet they certainly would. And a corporate entity such as PCGS would be recognized as an expert in the field of numismatics in court regardless of your personal feelings against them. But endless deflection of questions asked or the issue seems to be a common denominator at play here.

 

Watching the way this thread is unfolding is like watching a firehose with nobody holding the nozzle.

 

Ok, suppose a "layperson" were to believe that one of my "1964-D" over-strikes is a genuine US Mint issue. Is it not a genuine US Mint Peace Dollar (which has been defaced) ? How would this layperson go about deciding what to pay for it ?

"Face" value ($1) ? Good deal for the layperson

Silver content (about $12) ? Good deal for the layperson.

Collector value ($ varies) ? See next.

PCGS award amount ($10,000) ? How would a layperson know about this award. They must know something about coins.

If you do a Google search for "1964 Peace Dollar", the first result is eBay listings, which show coins selling in the range of about $5 (Chinese non-silver) up to about $500 (my over-strike).

The second result is the PCGS web page which shows my over-strike and states: "... someone recently came out with Fantasy 1964-D Peace dollars by striking them using their own coin press and making them resemble a genuine Mint product."

The third search result is the PCGS award notice.

The fourth search result is the Wikipedia page which shows my over-strike with the caption: "An unofficially produced 1964-D Peace dollar, struck over a genuine silver dollar by a private mint".

The fifth search result is my production blog for the "1964-D" and "1965-D" over-strikes.

The sixth search result is an article titled "The 1964-D Peace Silver Dollar: Elusive & Illegal to Own".

The seventh search result is a youtube video of a Chinese non-silver non-marked copy.

The eighth search result is a Denver Post article about the PCGS award. At least the Denver Post article notes that a genuine coin would be illegal to own.

The ninth search result is an article from the "Complete Guide to Peace Silver Dollars". It shows my over-strike with the notation: "The image which appears at the top of this page is a fantasy overstrike created by Daniel Carr of the Moonlight Mint."

The tenth search result is my original product page.

So more than half of the top ten Google search results make note of the existence of my over-strikes. An ordinary reasonable person would do such a search before spending a lot of money on a "1964" Peace Dollar. As with any "investment", some due diligence is a must. You wouldn't sink a lot of money into a stock without some research on the company, would you ?

 

Me no, yet people do it all day everyday and the law is designed to protect those who don't do any research for that very reason. People aren't required to do any research to still have the protections of the law, same thing with ignorance and breaking the law it's generally not a defensible position. And I'm not in anyway talking about someone believing your overstrikes are genuine to purchase them or sell them more utilize them in commerce. Say a situation occurring wherein a person who bought your 1975 quarter for instance happens to drop it some place by accident. Then say a "layperson" finds it, picks it up, thinks they've found a genuine quarter. That's likely what a reasonable person would conclude based off simply looking at it. Then say they happen spend it in a vending machine or a store shortly after. You may not have ever had any intent of facilitating fraud when striking your offerings, but if that situation occurred you would have unintentionally done so. That is unless of course you think your overstrikes are still legal tender and your authorized to strike coinage for the United States of America. I don't think you simply using U.S. coinage as planchets grants you that authority personally.

Your offerings may have once been actual U.S. mint coinage but after your alterations I don't believe they are any longer; again unless you think they retain legal tender status.

 

If it looks like a US coin, folks are going to be fooled and buy it. Very few know what these are. They will figure out that they got screwed after it's too late. They won't take the time to research it before. As the years go by, it will get worse and worse. How many people will be taken? It was wrong for this to have ever happened. Look at the number of people in the hobby that have spoke up against it. It's clear that none of this is important to Mr. Carr. You can't whitewash this. It's just wrong and bad for the hobby.

 

My point is, to be willing to pay a lot of money for a "1964" Peace Dollar in the first place requires some knowledge of the coin. And the first bits of knowledge visible at the very surface are that reproductions exist, and that the genuine originals are illegal to own.

A layperson might assume that a "1975" over-strike quarter is a normal US Mint product. If they found it or received it in change, no harm done. If they are willing to pay more than face value for it, that would require some special knowledge of the coin.

There is no "fraud" in your scenario. Nobody is harmed. The US government is not harmed because the value of the circulating coinage is not diluted (one legal-tender quarter is "consumed" for every over-strike, and the apparent face value is not changed). The recipient of the coin is not harmed because the market value of it is higher than any apparent face value.

I know somebody who received in change a 2004 novelty Washington DC state quarter. It was clearly marked "COPY". But that didn't stop it from ending up in circulation. The person contacted me because they found out I was the one who designed it (it was minted by someone else, however). I offered him $6 for it, but he decided to keep it.

I do not claim any legal-tender status for my over-strikes. It has never been established (as far as I know) what kinds of defacements, and to what degree, will nullify the legal-tender status. The US Mint will redeem current mutilated coins by weight, separated by denomination, if they can be identified as US Mint products. Even a melted blob of coins could possibly be redeemed. The US Mint will weigh them, divide that by the average weight per coin, and multiply by the face value of one coin. That will yield the total amount that the mutilated coins can be redeemed for.

 

What "number of people". I see a few. Not a lot. Please list them so we can see how many.

On the other hand, ANACS will certify my over-strikes as "Dan Carr O/S Token" ("O/S" = over-strike). My "1964-D" Peace Dollars are listed in the 6th edition, US section (under "Daniel Carr Dollars"), of the Krause "Unusual World Coins Catalog". I was awarded the George A Mallis (of VAM fame) literary award for writing an article about my "1964-D" over-strike Peace Dollars. That article was published in the Society of Silver Dollar Collectors newsletter. Some of the top numismatists of all time have purchased an over-strike from me. Like Q David Bowers who bought one of the "1964-D" over-strike Peace Dollars. One of my "1964-D" over-strike Peace Dollars was featured on an episode of the popular TV show "Pawn Stars" (season 8, episode 109, "Flying High"). The coin was immediately and clearly identified as a "Daniel Carr over-strike issue".

There was one person I know who really hated the over-strikes (and hated me personally, apparently). They frequently posted on the PCGS and NGC forums (but later got kicked off the PCGS forum). They went so far as to file a formal complaint with the ANA in an attempt to get me kicked out of the ANA for violating the ANA code of conduct by producing fantasy-date over-strike coins. I filed my rebuttal and the ANA Board of Directors reviewed the case. They dismissed the case immediately in its entirety.

My "1964-D" over-strike Peace Dollars were initially sold for about $135 on average. I stuck to my announced production limit of no more than 2,000 pieces total. I last offered them in 2010. They now sell on eBay for about $250 to $500 each (correctly listed as a "Daniel Carr over-strike). At least once a week someone asks me if I still have one that I can sell them. Once in a while I get one back in trade. But the answer is usually no, I do not have any available for sale.

 

So you think it's acceptable because you used an actual coin of legal tender to create your overstrike, if that overstrike then ends up being used in commerce? You may not claim legal tender status but the implication is there if you think it's no harm for your coins to be used in such a manner.

 

Well if this is Carr's position, I think I am going to start coining 1895 circulation strike Morgan Dollars. All were supposedly melted so I am guess I should be fine... (all tongue in cheek). Don't worry, I'll be sure to strike them over 1881-S or another super common date.

 

Thank you!