Just got the elusive 1916 Barber Half....

Finally, we can agree on something such as "struggling"!

 

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Oh, so the blanks aren't used for your fantasy coins.

 

I'd take that a little better if you'd put a "" after it. Why don't you edit it while you still can and do that.

 

There are two very significant differences between the "Gold Bullion International" (GBI) case and what I do:

1)
GBI marketed their pieces as "restrikes", which is a common term applied to official government re-issues of previous coins. GBI did not sufficiently indicate that their pieces were privately and recently minted. This had the effect of leading some potential buyers to believe the pieces were government minted.
All of mine are clearly advertised as private over-strikes.

2)
GBI's coins were NOT over-struck on genuine pieces. They were not defaced or altered original coins. They were freshly-struck on virgin blanks. As such, they are not unlike Chinese "1872" US Trade Dollars, for example. (The first year for genuine US Trade Dollars was 1873).


The Administrative Law Judge ruled that because these coins [the Gold Bullion International's German gold coins] were not copies of any actual “original numismatic items” the HPA did not require them to be marked “COPY”. The Commission reversed on this point. Admitting that the replicas were neither “reproductions” nor “copies” under the HPA’s definition of “imitation numismatic items”, the Commission found that they were “counterfeits”, because “[c]ourts construing the criminal counterfeit statutes have recognized that the alleged counterfeit need only be ‘sufficiently complete to be an imitation of and to resemble the genuine article.’

Note that the original ruling by the Administrative Law Judge (ALJ) was that the GBI pieces were not copies of any "original numismatic item". The FTC also agreed that they were not copies or reproductions as defined by the HPA. The FTC did contradict the ALJ, not on the basis of the HPA, but rather on the basis of U.S.C. Title 18 criminal counterfeiting statutes. However, U.S.C. Title 18 does not apply to my fantasy-date over-strike coins because they are not counterfeits, but rather altered/defaced genuine coins that are not produced for fraudulent purposes.

 

Correct.

 

Have you decided on the proof Barber yet?

 

My legal comments and citations notwithstanding, I am actually not a litigious person. I find it sad that everything must turn into a lawsuit in modern society to make people do what they should be doing all along in my opinion. There must be some other remedy outside of filing a lawsuit.

 

Well, when two entities feel that they are both right, a third party can be used but then, this isn't about a simple disagreement.

One side says the pieces are legally produced
While the other side says they are illegally produced or in violation of the law.

It seems to me that the law abiding citizen that wants the laws followed should step up to the plate and take the proper "legal" action and since the Secret Service, US Treasury and US Mint don't seem to care, that only leaves civil court with the HPA.
Of course, only if its truly believed that the law is being broken.

Otherwise, legality arguments are kind of pointless. Right?

 

Lol. Thank you.

 

I guess this thread is officially dead.

Anybody care to perform the last rites?

 

Can I have the saddle?

 

You asked for it. This is just how I have it memorized...

His body was so badly mangled, the boys all thought him dead. They picked him up so gently, and put him on a bed. He opened up his blue eyes, and looking all around. He motioned to his comrades, to come sit near him on the ground.

"Boys, send my mother my wages, the wages I have earned. For, I am afraid, boys, my last steer I have turned. I'm going to a new range, I hear my Master call. And I'll not see my mother, when the work's all done this fall."

"So Fred, you take my saddle. George, you take my bed. Bill, you take my pistol, after I am dead. And think of me kindly, when you look upon them all. For I'll not see my mother, when the work's all done this fall."

And poor Charlie was buried at sunrise, no tombstone at his head. Nothing but a little board, and this is what it said: "Charlie died at daybreak, he died from a fall. And he'll not see his mother, when the work's all done this fall."

 

Tan me hide........when I'm dead Fred!
Tan me Hide when I'm dead;

So we tanned his hide when he died Clyde

And that's it hangin' on the shed!

All together now.................

 

I guess we are done with this one. I guess they heard enough.

 

Ahhh but wait till the Proof one comes out

 

Can I buy the T shirt, or the mug?

 

Not quite. Here is an interesting article from PCGS on the 1964-D Peace Dollars that address several points of contention on this issue. It was written by a member of the PCGS Board of Experts.

http://www.pcgs.com/News/1964-d-Peace-Dollars-Do-They-Really-Exist

Question Posed Here: What did the 1964-D Peace Dollars look like?
PCGS:

"The coins were struck on 90% silver planchets, had an identical design to the Peace dollars struck from 1921-1935 (with the exception of the date) and had a D mintmark on the reverse. The Mint struck a total of 316,076 circulation strike 1964-D Peace dollars (not including 30 test strike pieces)."

Question Posed: But none exist, right?

PCGS:

"On May 24, 1965 the White House rescinded the President's instructions to produce the coins and ordered all 1964-D Peace dollars to be destroyed. Eva Adams, Director of the U.S. Mint at the time, oversaw both the production and destruction of the 1964-D Peace dollars.

Due to the large volume of coins struck, the Mint decided to weigh the coins during the retrieval process as opposed to counting each coin individually. The weight of the 1964-D Peace dollars included the scrap and webbing from which the coins were struck to try to obtain an accurate weigh in. There were several U.S. Mint personnel who witnessed the melting of these coins to ensure that all had been destroyed.

As time went by, there were rumors that some 1964-D Peace dollars had escaped the U.S. Mint. Eva Adams was under a lot of scrutiny and when asked whether any of these coins existed, her response was that they were all melted. However, years later according to Mint records, two test strikes resurfaced. The two coins that surfaced were apparently from the 30 test pieces that were sent to Washington for inspection. Those two coins remained in the Treasury Vault until 1970 but were immediately destroyed by the U.S. Mint as soon as they were discovered...

Others have mentioned that in 1965 Mint employees were given the opportunity to exchange the 1964-D Peace dollars at face value when they were originally struck. However, the Mint requested that employees bring them back once they were ordered to be destroyed."

So it appears more were discovered after the government had already supposedly "melted" them all. Interesting... And Carr in other threads has questioned (unless I misunderstood him) whether a reasonable person of ordinary intellect could conclude that pieces might very well exist. And the employees were "requested" to bring these back and not ordered. As far as I know, the Mint would have no contempt powers over them and they could tell the Mint to go away and find another job.

Hernandez also mentions that there was no authorization and the 1964 SMS pieces supposedly don't exist either, but they clearly do.

 

Try reading Roger Burdette's book then get back to the forums.

It is a bit more informative than the haphazard presentation of PCGS.

 

The point is that if a member of the PCGS Board of Experts believes the pieces could exist and PCGS is offering a $10,000 reward to authenticate one, then why would it be unreasonable for a lay person to believe the coins exist? And if so, why isn't it reasonable to conclude that a novice could believe one of Carr's pieces to be the real thing? People fall prey to Chinese counterfeits that are crude, so why not Carr's pieces?

 

PCGS can say and advertise whatever and however they like. That doesn't necessarily mean that they believe any original 1964-D Peace Dollars exist.

What really counts is what the US Treasury says. And they have publicly stated that no 1964 dollars were originally issued, all were melted, and none exist. But they do add the caveat that if somehow one escaped, it would be illegal to own and subject to confiscation. So if a layperson were to spend a lot of money without doing some basic due diligence, there is not much that could be done to save them from themselves. Eventually they would make a blunder in something. On the other hand, if a person were to do a bit of research they would find that if the coin they are interested in is genuine, it would be illegal to own. So, to them, that should send up a big enough red flag right there.