Just got the elusive 1916 Barber Half....

Yes, people come up with all sorts of worthless items believing they are worth a lot.
But it is one thing to believe that a coin you found or inherited is worth a lot of money, or to pay $20 for a novelty item at a flea market. It is entirely a different situation to actually be willing to PAY thousands of dollars or more for a coin. Novices are frequently encouraged to "buy the book before the coin", and rightly so. They are also advised to stick with certified coins. The reason is that there are thousands of pitfalls that a novice could fall into, such as polished VF coins sold as "BU", misattributed coins, outright counterfeits of existing key-date coins, etc. These are a FAR bigger problem than any fantasy-date over-strikes. But all it takes for a novice to avoid these pitfalls is to ask a few questions on forums such as this, to be directed down the right path.

And just because someone pays a few hundred dollars for one of my fantasy-date over-strike coins doesn't necessarily mean that they are getting a bad deal. When I originally sold the "1964-D" over-strike Peace Dollars, the issue price was about $120 on average. Recent eBay sales have ranged from about $250 to $525 each.

I've been a coin enthusiast and collector since about 1970. It is a hobby that I enjoy. Making cool tokens/medals is fun, pure and simple.

If I really didn't care about what happens in numismatics, here is what I could do:
Secretly make actual counterfeits of existing key-date coins, tokens, medals, etc.
Sell them as genuine.
Never let anyone know.

Of course, that would be illegal and I have never done that and I have no interest in ever doing anything like that.

So I take genuine coins, deface them (changing the date to a date that was never issued for that type), AND widely publish and disseminate information about them. Such information appears on my web sites (which include diagnostic information and mintages). Information is widely available on the internet in forums such as this one. A couple of my earlier fantasy-date over-strike coins are listed in the 6th edition of the Krause Unusual World Coins catalog (more of them may be listed in the next edition). ANACS will certify any of them as "Dan Carr O/S Tokens". The Society of Silver Dollar Collectors asked me to write an article for their newsletter about my "1964-D" over-strike Peace Dollar project. That article was published and it later received the "George A. Mallis Literary Award". One of my "1964-D" over-strike Peace Dollars was featured on the popular TV show "Pawn Stars" (season 8, episode 109 titled "Flying High"). It was clearly and immediately identified on the show as a "Daniel Carr" fantasy-date over-strike coin. I was not the one on the show, but I did help to arrange that appearance and made sure the information about the coin was presented correctly and in full.

If I was really a "greedy counterfeiter" only interested in profits at the expense of numismatics, I could have made a lot more money by making actual counterfeits and hiding everything rather than making legal novelty items and putting it all out in the open.

 

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With dies that comply with the HPA and say "COPY." The HPA abrogates 18 USC 487 only is much as the pieces comply with it. Repeal by implication is not favored. Your attempts to undermine the plain meaning of the language in the statute are unconvincing.

 

You can make up anything you want, but the statutes (the only thing that matters) do not support your claims. The HPA explicitly states that it does not repeal other laws which would include the Title 18 statutes. The fact that "everybody else is doing it" will not fly if tested in court in my opinion. And an unambiguous statute speaks for itself - it needs no interpretation and your unsupported speculation is irrelevant to this question if an adjudication were to occur.

 

Only a matter of time when Chinese counterfeiters would use similar argument and mass produce a bunch lot of them. Only difference is they wouldn't bother to put the fine print.

I do own a counterfeit Chinese coin that is overstruck over a genuine coin. Of course it would pass the edge and weight test which is commonly used to rule out counterfeits.

 

He is right for sure in this regard, even if you don't agree with the concept of fantasy coins. I was offered $500 for the 65D in an ANACS slab graded MS 69 "token." I turned it down, as it is not for sale. I have been offered $600 for the pair of Barber 1916 halves, if they grade MS 68 or above ( the first one will for sure, and I have not gotten the second one yet). I will not be selling them. The person who made both offers is a registry collector of Kennedy, Franklin, Seated, Walker, and MS Barber halves-- he knows his stuff. So, that kind of vindicates that Daniel's work could easily sell for much more. EBay vindicates this as well.

 

If one wants to avoid the detail in the fields (pebbles as you put it) shoot from further away, open the aperture to maybe f/4, this will give a more shallow depth of field causing the lowpoints (fields) to not be in as much focus thereby losing some detail. To dull a fully brilliant piece instead of handling the coin, use a faster shutter speed which will allow less light to hit the sensor. This will make your image darker and/or under exposed depending on how fast a shutter speed is used.

Digital cameras are capable of great detail and high resolution, this pebbled look is natural to me, as I can see it in the several specimens of your 1916 Fantasy piece with my naked eye, the digital camera magnifies that image more then tenfold obviously because the image is a good 10x bigger then the actual coin in most cases so it may seem exaggerated but it is there, similar to hits, niks or bagginess. I have professionally imaged some coins and collections for some folks on the PCGs coin forum and have displayed a few images, and I often get "wow that coin is baggy or has a lot of hits for a MS66' when indeed it doesn't for the grade, it is simply a large high resolution image will capture the smallest of defects and detail in a large blow up fashion making the coin appear to have worse contact hits, niks then what the eye really can see. Same is true for a coin with brilliant luster, I like images that show the flow of metal that occurs after the die has struck the planchet. Now this is just me and my method, not everybody will like it or agree.

 

It amazes me how freely the term loophole is used when accusing someone of skirting the law. Loophole is a term that's origin came from the defensive firing holes in a fortress, but in later years the definition has turned into a offensive weapon. If a law is meant to stop something, then that law should clearly state it's purpose. When words such as "genuine" and "current" are used in the text of a law, that should and does clearly state it's purpose. I see no holes to fire through.

 

I like the D Carr overstrikes, I would not mind at all if Mr Carr decided to put a DC mintmark on them,

 

To the argument that someone will buy a Carr coin for too much money thinking they are real won't this same hypothetical person with all that money to burn buy another bad coin either cleaned, counterfeit or overpriced? Won't the fool be parted from his money one way or another? Seems like you would need to do a lot of coin policing before you can properly protect this hypothetical guy.

 

BUT,
the HPA does NOT stipulate that numismatic replicas must have "COPY" on BOTH sides. I personally have NEVER seen a numismatic replica that has "COPY" on BOTH sides. So that means for all those numismatic replicas out there, the maker of them had at least one die without "COPY" on it.

And the HPA does not specify that the dies themselves must have "COPY" on them. It only stipulates that replicas of "original numismatic items" must be marked "COPY" in one location. So the "COPY" stamp could legally be impressed into the replica only after it has been struck. Some legal replicas are produced in this manner, which means that the maker had BOTH dies without "COPY" on them.

 

Excuse me Mr. Carr, but it's very difficult to buy your story that you do it mainly for fun when you are selling your coins for profit. It appears to be substantial profit also, but that's not for me to say.

I know you have support from some collectors, but I always felt that you are walking a fine line between ethical and unethical. I don't know if you would have made as much money, but I honestly believe you would have made a better name for yourself creating original work.

The main issue I have with your work is not your motive however. I just think it's not in the best interest of the hobby that you are helping to insert coins into the market place which could (and most likely will) be used by con artists. I don't believe taking "genuine coins, deface them changing the date to a date that was never issued for that type" is beneficial to the hobby. If you really cared about the hobby more than anything else, I don't think you would be doing this.

This is a meaningless comment. To begin with, how do we know you are not making counterfeit coins? Are we supposed to believe you would tell us?

Now if you were to counterfeit and get caught you would go to jail. But why do that when you just replicate coins without stamping "copy" on them due to a technicality in the law?

I have to say, the more you attempt to defend your work the worse it makes you look, in my opinion.

 

Are you saying it's okay for someone to make replicas because any buyer that gets fooled will eventually get fooled by someone else??? Where's the logic in that?

Yes, we should do a lot of policing. As much as we can at least. It won't save everyone, but it could prevent hypothetical guy #2 from getting fooled.

 

Yes, I do make a profit which pays the bills. Making a profit doesn't make it any less fun.

Perhaps you are not aware of my "original work". So far I've produced about 14 fantasy-date over-strike coin types. But I have minted 32 different coin club medals, many dozens of UNA "Amero" coins with original designs, a dozen different modern "Hard Times" tokens with original designs, several state quarter designs, a few dozen trade tokens, a couple dozen other medals of various themes, half a dozen cobs, a couple dozen bullion coins, etc. So fantasy-date over-strike coins are only a small percentage of the various issues I produce. Time will tell how I will be viewed in the future, but some historic names that seem comparable are: Boggs; Dickeson; Scott; Lovett; Lesher; Elder.

Every coin issued by the US Mint could be used by a con artist in some way to bilk someone. The most common occurrence is VF and EF coins that are polished and sold as "BU".

That is an opinion that you are certainly entitled to. But I would refer to Morgandude11 post # 345 in this thread. Many advanced collectors appreciate the opportunity and enjoy adding these ancillary items to their collections.

The truth is never "meaningless". Yes, you should believe me.

I disagree with the premise that I am "replicating" coins. That is not the right word to describe what I do. A more accurate descriptor would be "altering" or "defacing". If a "hobo" nickel carver engraved a "1939" date on a Buffalo nickel, would that be "counterfeiting" ? I think not. Defacement or alteration yes. Counterfeiting no.

 

Hommer, I agree. There is no loophole. In my opinion, the pieces are plainly illegal; thus, it is an issue of ignoring the law rather than finding a work around in my opinion.

 

The Title 18 statutes bar all reproductions or coins in struck in design, resemblance, or similitude to U.S. coinage except for the exceptions created by the HPA. If the piece does not satisfy the HPA, then it would seem that there is nothing to prevent the application of the statutes discussed in my opinion.

 

Be best to just contact your local government representative and/or your senator with your concerns. The mint will just direct you to the secret service, who in turn will just direct you back to the mint. But your states house representatives office as well as your senators office should be more than eager to speak with you. Many Americans never seem to contact their local government representatives at all but they are their to serve and represent us after all. And in my experience from doing so a few times they (or at least their office staff) are very happy to assist in anyway they possibly can. They also have the means to press buttons that us ordinary folk simply don't have the access to. Likely be more fruitful than arguing with someone whose mind your not going to change no matter how valid you believe your position on the issue is.

 

Guys, we all get you don't like what Daniel does.

If the government steps in and says he cannot do it anymore then and only then, that will be it. Until then, he can and will continue to do what he does. People that like what he does, will continue to sell out these novelty pieces.

Quite frankly, I am surprised he has wasted as much time as he has trying to defend himself to people that will not change their opinions and will go to great lengths to say the same thing over and over again. OMG - How many times have I read in this thread "What you do is illegal and will ruin the hobby?" Personally, I wouldn't have given the critics more than a single post stating my position.

I am pretty confident that Daniel has discussed his business with Lawyers (who are better educated on the law than most of us here) that have advised him concerning what he does. Regardless, 18 pages just reads like a silly and pointless rant (kind of reminds me of how the republicans and democrats "debate" these days.

As I try to explain to my son, there comes to a point when you should stop because you only hurt your own argument to continue. On that note, I'm done!

 

I would own every single one if I could, and proudly show them off while also squirreling them away at an undisclosed bank vault somewhere in Switzerland

 

Personally, I'd pick a different country.