Indian Head cent artificial toning?

I lucked out buying two very high grade MS66+ Indian heads from big time eBay dealer with 14 days return policy...they looked so pretty ...I was sending them off to be slabbed , but , knowing turn around time too long , I got seller to agree to 2 weeks after return from grader , if I won the auctions .....also , I got him to agree to pay for all fees and shipping if upgradeable......they came back ALTERED COLOR ...got full refund .. fees , shipping ...seller got two nice slabbed coins and I got saved .... bottom-line ..he blocked me

 

Log in or Sign up to hide this ad.

I thought TPG'S wouldn't grade a dipped coin ( SO WE HOPE ) , so why list it as UNDIPPED ?

 

Sound advice, I like it, especially when it comes to sellers in the business, i.e., to coin dealers. As to the others, they're going FSBO ("For Sale By Owner"), and maybe this caution doesn't apply as much as regards them, although it should be heeded, or you're taking chances. Of course, if you're just a coin collector, you presumptively know what the hell you're doing, and as such I'd just advise simply buying from a seller who will give you a few days to go over the coin in-hand. And, the majority of the honest sellers will. The kids in my kid's coin club, for instance, ship out their sales in sealed flips, and require return in the condition received, in ten days, or the deal is final. Of course, if you're like most these days, i.e., a coin investor, and you don't care about jack outside of how much you might be able to resell the coins for, you do want them in that plastic before you buy, as advised.

 

Here's the coin in hand. It looks like it may have been cleaned however I think the toning is natural. Its not nearly as dramatic as the eBay image. Also it appears to be a RPD variety: http://indianvarieties.com/cents/1889-indian-head-penny/1889-rpd-004/

Sadly, this variety doesn't command a premium as far as I'm aware. I'll probably send the coin back

 

Good idea. The reverse is terrible, and what I can see on the obverse doesn't look good either. The color looks more reasonable in your photo, though. I'd say it's AU details, cleaned, based on your photos.

 

It has been cleaned and it has started to retone.

 

P.S. Raw copper is treacherous and I suggest that you avoid expensive, higher graded pieces until you have more experience. For the moment, I think you should stick with PCGS and NGC.

 

Yeah I'm not very experienced and I could tell it has been cleaned! I might buy some raw copper from The Penny Lady (she's a well-respected and trustworthy source). I got in touch with her and she started to help me determine what I need to learn.

I don't regret this purchase because it gave me an opportunity to see a cleaned coin in hand (I currently don't have the ability or time to attend shows or the like). Also, I heeded the warning to not purchase coins on eBay without a return policy. That gave me the ability to check this coin out in person risk free.

Thanks everyone for your help! I'll be posting more as I start to build my collection. I'm very excited to see what I can find!

 

Charmy will set you straight. Working with an experienced dealer in copper is also another excellent option. I just don't want to see you taken advantage by eBay or local brick and mortar coin sharks.

 

Indeed! To make matters worse, I just just found out that a coin I had bought at a local coin shop many years ago had been cleaned. I did not expect that. Of course I pay to get it graded to find that out...

It looks like I'm learning real quick to pay the premium for what's legitimate (i.e. graded and sold by respected dealers).

 

I don't want to hijack this thread, but my question seems to be inline with the OP's. I have an Indian Head I bought on eBay and have posted it in a couple of threads. It was my first Indian Head and second copper I have ever bought. I bought it for the amazing color that I saw. This makes me now question if I may have made a mistake. Now I do have to state that no matter what the outcome of opinions, I still really like the coin. Which, in the end, is what really matters. But still, I do plan on passing my coins on to my children after I pass. With that said, I don't want to leave them something that I overpaid for and could have done better for them. My question is does this appear to be natural coloring? The first photo is the color of the coin looking directly at it. The second photo is how it appears when tilting the coin to reflect light off of the surface.

Again, I am not wanting to hijack this thread. But it is a raw coin I bought on eBay and I feel I am following the footsteps of @thunderproof the OP. Thank you.

 

I'm very inexperienced but I'll pass along some of my observations from the coin I received.

One of the things I did do with the coin in hand was look for the "cartwheel" effect that everyone seems to point to as an indicator of a cleaned vs uncleaned coin. I compared it to a shiny penny I found in my change and I was able to clearly see the difference. The IHC was SHINY but lacked the cartwheel effect that I expected. The shiny penny I found in change had a VERY obvious cartwheel that I could easily produce in almost any lighting. If I'm seeing correctly, it appears that your coin exhibits this effect even in the image.

The color change does seem pretty drastic to me just to be changing the angle you are holding it. I haven't seen anything quite like that since I began looking for toned IHCs but again I know very little. Hopefully the experts can take a peek.

 

Your coin appears to have been cleaned. Look at how glossy the coin looks and the original mint luster is impaired.

 

IHCs are my favorite because these were probably the first commonly collectible coin series in our nation and because there is a wealth of information about them. Several reference books provide the history of the times for each date. Check out these three websites: http://indiancentvarieties.com, http://www.indiancent.com, & http://www.fly-inclub.org. There are excellent references in both printed and digital format. The Fly-In Club has several decades of their quarterly journal available in pdf. Slabbed coins often contain unmarked varieties and are a safer choice. I prefer circulated ungraded coins because they are the most affordable and provide the extra element of risk & reward. As with any series, there are counterfeits in key dates out there that need to be watched for. So, knowledge is your main challenge. Research first, and establish a goal of type and grades before you start. In addition to toning are wood grained colored coins, which some collectors like. If you want an extra challenge, collecting varieties will provide that. I made the mistake of filling holes before I understood this series and ended up selling most of them when I finally decided what to collect. The Fly-In-Club has a forum where you can seek advice from experts in this series.

 

cleaned, scratched, AT

 

You should definitely talk to her at a show if you get a chance. She has some nicely toned coins that she shows off in a special section of her table with a simple sticker on them that you should take a look at for examples of how copper tones.

In fact, here's one of them I bought from her.



I wouldn't go so far as to call it rainbow toning, but there are definitely 2 or 3 different colors besides the typical mint. This picture actually does the coin no justice; it's far nicer in hand.

 

I would. I have seen several people (other than me) also refer to this type of toning as rainbow toning. In any event, it is gorgeous.

 

That is a beautiful coin! For copper I would say that is rainbow toning. Compared to some of the fine silver toned coins maybe not but you don't see chipper in that color too commonly. Usually brown with darker colors.

I've already requested some pictures of some of her raw toned coins. I'm planning to attend a show or two this summer/fall that she will be at. I'm very excited to see what I can come across.

 

What you see at an angle is pretty common on copper. Based on the first picture, this coin is very natural with market acceptable toning. I can even some some cartwheel spokes, nice coin.