Can You Grade?

The price difference for modern coins in MS/PR-69 & MS/PR-70 can be significant. If you buy 70 grades, do you feel confident paying 70 money for raw examples or is certification required for you?

Let's try not to get into a discussion over whether or not the premium for a 70 grade is justified.

 

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I would never buy a raw coin as MS70, hands down. The chances are against you that any raw coin you send in will grade MS70. Doesn't matter how awesome the coin looks, I think that would be a bad investment and you would lose more times than you win.

 

That's why it used to be called BU and decisions made with coin in hand!

 

I can grade fine, with a coin in hand. From photos? Not s'much. Lighting is too variable. Now if there were a standard for coin images in animated gif files or whatever that 6-second movie file is..... then maybe.

I would NEVER EVER UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES pay 70 money for a raw coin, and would darned seldom pay it for a certified one. I try to make a rule to not pay for what is invisible when looking at a coin, and the difference between a 69 and a 70 falls into that category, ESPECIALLY in this era of seemingly random appearance of "milk spots".

Until the milk spot bug is squashed, paying 70 money for ANYTHING is insane.

 

lol

 

As for der Verboten subject of whether the premium for a 70 is justified, no less an authority than Cliff Mishler says, "no". Good enough for me. Further, you won't find another country in the entire world as obsessed with single point spreads as the U.S. market is. We're nuts!

 

Not when the difference between whether or not a TPG determines that coin truly is a 70 could be something as simple as the grader sneezing at the wrong moment.

 

For me, I started collecting Silver Eagles raw, that were "graded" MS69, I sold them all and now only buy NGC graded E.R. MS69. For 3 reasons,
1. I don't trust the raw grade on a coin like that
2. Between 69 and 70, I can't tell a difference in grade
3. Easier to store

 

Back in the early 1960s, my Pop bought an UNC 1950-D nickel at a local coin shop in Bay City, Texas. It was in a nice screw type acrylic holder. Back then, it cost about $35, and that's in 1960s dollars. The coin can be bought nowadays for about $20 in 2015 dollars! Anyway, to return to the question of grading, the coin couldn't grade for more than MS60 by todays standard - what a weak strike! No circulation at all, but not so hot a coin. To Dad, uncirculated was uncirculated - that's what the holy Redbook by Yeoman said! Even to the end in 2013, he said that all coins deemed "uncirculated" and sold to collectors by the Mint, should be MS70 quality and there shouldn't be any grade variance. Ah, if only....

 

For those of you keeping score at home, it seems the denizens of CoinTalk, and whatever species creates the 69 to 70 spread that exists today, has an intersection set of, well, maybe just statequarterguy. So much responsibility for one poor guy to shoulder... the unfairness of it all.

 

Curious: what year was Dad's last red book? Not to denigrate Dad, but your story rings familiar to me. So many coIn guys seem to think it's okay at some point to stop learning or staying current. I'm a little obsessed on this right now because I just had a birthday and hung a brand new 6 up as the first digit. The temptation to stop learning and start leaning on the past is as real as stone. But it MUST be fought with every particle of strength I can muster. It is no longer second nature, but now must be fought for every crumb of new reading and study. It's WORK! I hope I die before I decide I no longer need to keep up.

 

I'm just gonna state the obvious fact that buying graded ASE's in the first place is silly, let alone paying extra for a 70. That's downright comical.

 

Yet they sell in huge numbers...???? Guess it's not that obvious

 

It's not a matter of being able to grade. Even the "infallible" TPGs can not consistently grade a coin as MS69 vs. MS70. If you don't believe me, crack out a few 70s and send them in -- and then cry when you see how many of them come back as 69s or even 68s. Or, if you think you're so darned good -- look at some coins with a 20x or even more magnification (well beyond what the TPGs use), find the supposed "70s" according to you, and then send them in -- they won't all come back 70s. If you think they will, you are crazy/delusional.

The illusion of "perfect 70s" is created, maintained, and propped-up by the TPGs. They make boat loads of money in submission fees on bullion and modern junk being slabbed in hopes of the special 70 grade. It is a whole lot of hand waving, smoke, mirrors, and registry-set hype. Not much more than that. But, if that floats your boat, then by all means spend your money that way.

 

... And the Great Age-Related Numismatic Rift opens yet again. Oh joy.

 

Here we go....

 

I see the responses I expected so far. I'm on the border, as I believe I've honed my skills a bit. As for selling, I wouldn't sell what I believe to be a 70 coin for raw prices, as there are those that can grade these, and they're out there cherry picking them, so I keep the good ones. I usually only buy a 70 if is there's a small premium, so yeah, I'd pay a small premium if I believed the coin to be a 70.

If as some say, "They can't tell the difference between a 69 & 70", then why would they pay a premium for a 70? Maybe because that's the market and they believe the coin will appreciate or maybe they just like labels.

My hope is that someday there will be enough collectors out there that have the confidence to distinguish between 69 & 70. Until then we are all held hostage by the grading companies.

 

He should have gone with the blue book

 

There are huge numbers of people who never realize they've been had until it's too late.

 

Asking "Can you grade", and then limiting that question to only the difference between 69 and 70 is completely silly. I can grade coins pretty well, in the range of grades that actually exist.

If you think this 69/70 stuff is "real", I challenge you to go through say 100 proofs, and set aside those you would personally grade as 70 -- and the others that you would personally grade 69. Then, I would record your groupings, shuffle them, and give them back to you to sort into 69s and 70s again. I am extremely confident that you would not consistently regroup those coins to exactly the 69 and 70 groups you did the first time.

The exact same exercise would work for coins submitted to the TPGs. The fallacy in your logic is that there is NOT one single right answer. Grading is subjective, and there is no gold standard "correct" grade for any given coin. Short of having a surface scan computerized method of grading (which has been attempted, even many many years ago), you will never consistently get the same answer. It is not a scientific question with one right answer. It is a group of opinions, of you, others, the graders at TPGs, etc.

Maybe we should similarly discuss the reasons why blue is a better color than orange. Or why Coke is inferior to Pepsi.