Langbord case: What are those 1933 Saint-Gaudens double eagles worth?

That's what I'd guestimate.

An increase in the supply of 1933 DE's should result in a drop from the $6.6 MM auction price (ex-commission).

HOWEVER...the coin was essentially uncollectable after that auction. The coin was sold after the internet bubble burst; today, you have some bigtime coin collectors with serious $$$ who might pay whatever it takes to have a complete set INCLUDING a 1933.

I could see a few of the higher-rated coins approaching $10 MM or more if you have a few buyers. Think free-agent bidding wars in baseball with 2 dumb owners.

 

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Between 1929 and 1932, the average American's income drops 40 percent to about $1,500 per year

 

It's POSSIBLE that there is now a MARKET for 1933 Double Eagles. Before there wasn't.

The coin wasn't collectable for anybody who wanted a complete set. Now, it is.

So if you are a social media or oil or tech billionaire, it probably doesn't matter if the coin costs $2 MM or $10 MM.

 

I can't wait to get one

 

I'm going by the actual IRS 1932 tables. Median vs. average...don't forget.

 

You are going by Median not average .90% of the people were getting the average wage

 

The AVERAGE wage was HIGHER than the MEDIAN wage.

 

Example of three teachers earning $20,000, $24,000 and $40,000, the median income is $24,000
To me the average is $20,000

 

No, the average is $28,000. ($20,000 + $24,000 + $40,000) / 3 = $28,000

 

The Example shows $20,000 is the average,$24,000 the Government shows as median so you feel better,$40,000 well the top
100 thousand get the $20,000. 1 thousand get $24,000. And only 50 get $40,000
average to me is the $20,000
The Government can make any number to be in there favor

 

Conder, if that's true, it fills in a dark spot left in the Dissent, namely, here: "...Roy Langbord called Joan Langbord to ask if Switt (his grandfather) had kept any more of the coins." That acknowledges Switt had more of the coins. I couldn't figure out what that "more" was referring to until I read what you just related. It's the nine coins that were rounded up in the mid 1940s, and the Farouk coin. If that's it, it's important, as those are the facts, among others, that supported the jury finding the U.S. owned the coins, and the Langbords knew it, as early as the mid 1940s.

 

No, I think it proves that the coins would have been confiscated and unless the Langbord's could PROVE they did NOT steal them, the government would get them back.

ALL 1933 DEs were considered illegal. The Farook Coin wasn't known and the exchange procedure wasn't well-known like it is today. So it's not surprising that both here and in Europe NOBODY would admit to owning a 1933 DE.

 

The coins were confiscated the Langbord's lost the case with the government and only won in appeals court due to the Government error .
Of course if you had a 1933 DE and did not want the Government to take it you would not admit to owning one what is your point ?

 

My point is I believe the Langbord's -- certainly Joan -- knew about the coins. No way somebody has 10 gold coins -- Saints or otherwise -- in a safe-deposit box and isn't aware of them. Well, maybe Bill Gates or Warren Buffet.

Izzy Switt had the coins and KNEW that they would be seized. Pre-Farook and pre-exchange policy knowledge, NOBODY with a 1933 could PROVE they obtained it legally (i.e., by an exchange).

Ownership of gold was ILLEGAL, 1933 or 1932 or 1931 or Saint or non-Saint, whatever. Only numismatic coins could be held. A new 1933 would not qualify as having numismatic value, even if worth $35-$40 to a guy in Philly or NY.

So....since the BURDEN OF PROOF was on Switt/Langbord and anybody else with a 1933 DE, and unless you had a signed certificate (like the Farook coin) implying you got the coin WITHOUT THEFT INVOLVED, any ownership of a 1933 Saint-Gauden Double Eagle was assumed to have been the product of theft.

Unless you had a certificate -- or a Movietones movie reel showing you doing a DE exchange -- you were in trouble. Even if it was possible or probable that you could point to an exchange, you needed PROOF. Even saying that you took a special trip to the Philly Mint from New York each year from 1923-1933 in January or February or March or whenever they were awaiting release to exchange some older Saints for a brand-new one would NOT cut it.

You had to have PROOF that the coin was legal or the government would use ALL their resources to get it back.

Look at what Jay Fenton went through to get the coin...and it was worth millions.....when Switt owned his coins, they were only worth a few hundred bucks, maybe a few thousand in the late-1940's. Who's going to risk arrest, jail-time, and huge legal expenses back then ? Your legal expenses would dwarf your gain on the coins unless you had hundreds or thousands of them which nobody did.

The strangest thing in this whole saga to me is why the Langbord's sent all 10 coins to the Treasury for identification purposes. I would have sent 1 and hid the other 9.

 

Of course they Knew the coins were in the box and they were worthless if they didn't win the case yes they knew there was going to be a court case over ownership
That's why they sent all 10 coins to the Treasury they knew the Government would take them and the court case would start holding any back would be a problem win or lose they won
And there lawyers
$200 turn in to Millions and they were found after the Farook coin was sold
that set the value of them
Now how many more are out there ? look at 5th 1913 nickel how many years no one knew were it was

 

The coins belong to the government because Izzy had more of them??? And how old are the Langbords? The mid 40's was 70 years ago. Did the Langbords really know anything about them back then?

By who and when? From 1933 to 1944 they were considered legal by the collecting public ad were openly bought and sold, even advertised. When one was sold to an over seas buyer they though nothing of applying for the legally required export license and it was granted. It wasn't until 1944 that the government suddenly decided they were illegal. And then the only people that thought they were illegal was the government, the same people who had said that all of them were accounted for and that none were missing.

Ownership of more the five oz of gold was illegal unless you were a licensed dealer in gold, which Izzy was.) Yes ownership of numismatic gold was legal and the order defined that as any coins struck before April 5, 1933. The 1933 DE were struck beginning in March so they qualified.

The question to that is WHY would the burden of proof be on them? If you are accused of having stolen something, you are innocent until proven guilty. The burden of proof is supposed to be on the accusers. The Langbords have shown that there WERE ways the coins could have been acquired legally. The government has not shown that Izzy DIDN'T use one of those methods. They just keep saying "we didn't release them".

No one would, which was why no one fought them back then when the government confiscated the coins in the mid 40's. Now today they try to use the fact that no one fought them as "proof" that they knew they were illegal and that they were stolen.

 

Right on for the Langbord family for standing up for themselves! Those coins are gonna be sold for a very pretty bag of millions!!

 

Joan Langbord worked for her father Izzy Switt for years....I'm sure she knew about the coins. Her sons, I'm not sure. I've met one of them, he's an entertainment lawyer.

I'm not sure about that.

The government may not have been pursuing them, but I wouldn't say they were bought and sold like a 1932 or 1924 Saint.

But the coin itself was illegal if not properly monetized. NONE of the 445,000 DEs were ever OFFICIALLY released.

That's the rub, Conder. If the government has to prove the coins are stolen, it's game-set-match Langbords. If the Langbord's have to prove they were NOT stolen, game-set-match government.

Since the government is the sole possessor/minter of coins...and since the coins were never OFFICIALLY released...and since the exchange policy is mostly hearsay (it's not "beyond a reasonable doubt" certified).....the Langbord's were at a disadvantage. Because the judges/courts had established that if you had possession of such a coin, it was ASSUMED to be stolen.

Which I think is wrong.

 

There were advertisements in the trade publications offering them for sale. Not a hushed back room deal where everyoe was sworn to secrecy.

But what does "officially released" mean? once coins were turned over to the cash window at the Mint they could be paid out over the counter to anyone requesting one. Would that be considered "officially released"? Because there were at least 68 of them in the Cash window during the time window between when you could exchange gold for gold, and when the final order came down to no longer pay out gold for any reason.

And on the form letters the Treasury sent out to collectors informing them of what coins were available for purchase they wrote in that the 1933 eagles and double eagles have now been struck. this seems to imply that the Treasury would sell those coins as well. So if the Treasury was willing to sell them to collectors, would that be an "official release"?

 

We have to remember that the Langbords lost the original case because of some screw up with the government, it was overturned on appeal. I did not follow the case, but the government's case had to be pretty compelling for 10 people to come up with that decision, that it belonged to the government. What really surprises me the most, the federal government ceases property everyday and they make sure they do the filings properly. Makes you wonder how and why they screwed up on this one. Such a publicized case, not only for coin collectors but the general public.

I think the burden of proof would have to fall on the Langbords because if the government said that it was illegal to possess them, they never released them so technically the only way to get them is by stealing them or buying them stolen. I'm not a lawyer but sounds good to me.

Why did the government in 1944 said it was illegal to possess and they wanted them back? I'd like to know who made that decision. Maybe someone who researched this a little bit more can tell us? The bottom line is the coins are now out there and can be sold. I don't know if the government has anymore actions to take against them, but only time will tell. As for the price, which I think is what this discussion is about, this will attract collectors and non-collectors. People love to buy the story more than the item. And this has a great story for a book.

I'm very sure there are more than 10 people in this world that could pay the $7M dollars easily with no problem. Either to add it to their coin collection or a trophy on their wall.