Beware of rainbow toning

Ah, the proverbial polished turd.

 

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I fully acknowledge what you're saying here. Without implicating this particular Morgan, because the pic is low res, I am telling you I examine, both in hand and from top end show auction catalogs, whose coin photography has gotten really good, coins, both with pretty and ugly toning, and examine lustre and surfaces, and in my deeply held opinion, both ugly and pretty toning are getting grade bumps, RECENTLY. And don't try to tell me they're not. I have 52 years of experience looking at coins, new artificial lenses in my eyes, good reading glasses and a lit 10x loupe around my neck pretty much every waking hour. I know what I see.

I don't dispute at all your report of what is. I dispute it is a correct way to run a system.

 

You make a good point that coins with ugly toning should be penalized with respect to grade. But I will tell you why I have trouble caring. I am an "eye appeal" collector first and foremost. I don't buy ugly coins! So I am insulated from what you are complaining about because those coins never end up in my collection. That said, the TPGs do penalize coins for some toning as I stated previously. You are just uncomfortable with where they draw the line. But Kurt, that is the subjective nature of the beast. If they changed the policy to accommodate your taste, it would certainly tick off somebody else, wouldn't you say?

I'm not sure I agree with your statement that aesthetic tastes change over time. If you are referring to the fact that 30 years ago most collectors preferred blast white coins compared to the increasing number of modern collectors who prefer toned coins, I would say that the collectors 30 years ago didn't have a choice. The internet didn't exist, and dealers didn't display or advertise toned coins. Do you know how many collectors join this website and see rainbow toned coins for the first time and exclaim how they had no idea that coins with color even existed?

You won't see them in threads like this because this thread is a beehive and they don't wanna get stung. But I promise there are some lurkers who learned a whole heck of a lot about toned coins by reading this thread. And that is the reason I defend them from ignorant posts like the one made by the OP. I don't want their first impression of toned coins to be that toned coins are a fraud, because they are not.

In my experience, eye appeal never goes out of style. And that is not to say that only rainbow toned coins can exhibit eye appeal. I posted a link to my registry set a few pages ago. Check it out and you will find many coins without rainbow toning that have excellent eye appeal. Heck, you don't even need to do that, just look at my avatar. Eye appeal rules, the toilet paper coins can be someone else's problem.

 

With all due respect Kurt, I think we have established that you consider ugly toned coins that are not penalized in grade the same thing as a "grade bump." I don't see it that way, and honestly, you are the first person I have ever heard characterize it that way.

 

Thank you for your very kind invitation to view your registry set. With all due deference to the work and care you put into it, registry sets are just something I'm prewired to not appreciate, I guess. I work in a dog eat dog hyper-competitive profession. I come to coins to get away from a competitive paradigm. Registry sets leave me a little bewildered.

Now a competitive show exhibit that teaches me something new? That kind of thing I appreciate, whether it wins for the exhibit or not.

 

I didnt buy or even know about toned coins until i came to cointalk. After seeing some threads here, I became hooked. I sold every dipped coin I had.

 

1) Yes, we have indeed established something very close to what you suggest, although I'd state it less charitably.
2) First one you've heard characterize it that way? Wait and watch.

If you PRIMARILY associate professionally with toning fans, I can easily see that my view would be rare. I happen to primarily hang out with coin people over the age of 70, maybe 75 even. Not by choice. They are the club members. Old school guys. Most of them are not quite getting the toning thing either. And you're not gonna see them on CT either. They fear the Internet more than the grim reaper, baby.

The larger of my two local coin clubs REGULARLY has an attendance between 60 and 80 members. The under 60 crowd looks like me (for two months) and maybe 6-7 others. One family of four. More over 90 than under 60. The club has produced a few Ferran Zerbe award winners, and numerous other accolade recipients.

 

Trust me, you will learn a lot about Jefferson Nickels if you view my registry set and read the descriptions. In essence, my registry set is an exhibit, and I have no desire to be #1.

 

Jeffs?!?!? Now you ARE speaking my language! I shall peruse!

 

Speaking (briefly off topic) of Jeffs, how do you feel about the impending end of 75/25 cupronickel in favor of a new stainless steel alloy? It will surely change, if not eliminate, toned Jeffs when it happens. Same alloy since 1866, then POOF!

 

Maybe he was the "under-bidder"?

 

I agree. Eye appeal is a component of mint state grading. To be fair, however, I have been told that I am extremely punitive (and sometimes too punitive) of ugly coins.

 

Don't hold your breath.

 

Nah, but out of 450 lots, it WAS the only one that was an MS heavily toned piece. It really doesn't technically belong as part of this discussion, because it was a slabbed GSA, as was mine (for those of you scoring at home, that's 2 1884-CC GSA's - one as white as they come, one toned ugloid supreme) so that proves that with 131 years on both of them, the last about 43 in plastic, both blast white and toned can be and are totally original. Who knows? Maybe even the same bag.

 

Who says that? Do you ask them why they aren't? IOW, why is eye appeal a one way street? I dunno, maybe "that's just the way it is" works for some people, but not me.

 

I don't really collect the modern Jeffs (1965-present), so it really wouldn't bother me all that much.

 

One toned coin out of 450! Have the coin doctors who can easily beat the TPGs been on vacation?

 

The dealers and advanced collectors that have made those comments in passing to me are very knowledgeable and well respected, and to be honest, there is truth to it. I have mellowed out some in time, but the areas where I deviate the most from the TPGs/mainstream grading are 1) at the lower end of the grading spectrum where I seldom, if ever, purchase coins in that range and 2) coins that are ugly and/or have significant problems. And I don't think they meant that eye appeal was a one way street, merely that I can be harsh on coins that I find repulsive. My standards of market acceptability also appear to be more stringent than the many (in regards to dipped out pieces, light cleanings, scratches/dings, etc.).

 

Kurt, there is a method to the TPG madness. I have told you that TPGs don't penalize for ugly toning unless it affects luster. The reason they treat it neutrally is because they don't want to decide what is or isn't ugly. In essence, they think there is more subjectivity involved in calling something ugly than calling something beautiful. Despite what some people think, the number of times that a coin actually gets a grade bump for exceptional eye appeal is actually very rare. Most toned coins, including rainbow toned coins, don't get grade bumps for eye appeal. In the cases where they do, the TPGs rely on the probability that just about everybody who views that coin will acknowledge that the coin is beautiful.

You have a very good idea of what you think constitutes ugly. But there is no way that the TPGs can decide what is ugly without people disagreeing with them, so they don't do it. In addition, eye appeal is typically tied to luster. Have you ever seen a toned coin with muted luster? The eye appeal is nowhere near that of a rainbow toned coin that has blazing luster. It is the combination of color and luster that gives vibrancy to the color and results in exceptional eye appeal. It is the difference between this coin (NGC MS63):



and this coin (Battle Creek NGC MS64*):



In the end, I think the best example I can show you about why the TPGs should not penalize for ugly is a Cointalk thread that I started in 2008. Please read this thread and note the wide range of reactions to the same coin, ENJOY!

A Uniquely Toned Peace Dollar in Auction

 

I have an open mind, but then I look at auction results such as this one:

http://coins.ha.com/itm/morgan-doll...nt-of-the-canvas-bag-on-liberty-/a/366-9993.s

That is $1.8k more than an untoned version. If this can be easily duplicated, why aren't there more out there? Are they really leaving that kind of money on the table?