Beware of rainbow toning

Kurt, your logic is sound. There is absolutely no way to determine intent with regards to toning. When grading coins, all you have to go on is what you see with your own two eyes. So in essence, the determination of artificial versus natural is always going to be an educated guess. Feel free to read my post from the thread linked below for a more in depth explanation of the subject. I will post the photos here though.

Techniques for artificially toning a coin





It is my opinion that for the most part, both PCGS and NGC do a very good job with their educated guesses. I will admit that ASEs are definitely one of their worst series with respect to consistency.

 

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@Coinchemistry 2012 , BTW, I haven't forgot about your offer RE: CAC. I just put off my submission for a while, as I just bought a boat! I nice 17.5' Lund fishing boat. My numismatic coin buying and activity as slowed to a trickle while I digest this purchase.

 

@Lehigh96 , I think NGC is a little tougher on toning than PCGS at the moment. I've been seeing some questionably toned coins grade clean in PCGS holders lately. They are the newer PCGS holders. Do you agree? I'd like to get your opinion.

Maybe more people are selling there toners as the market seems hot right now, but I have noticed the trend.

 

Stop "reading between the lines" then.

The operative word was "Beware" not "Avoid".

 

Brandon,

While that is a fantastic coin with superb toning, I agree that the price is totally over the top. First of all, it looks like an MS64 with a grade bump for the toning. I don't have a problem with the grade mind you, but the cleanliness of the coin should factor into the premium paid. The originality of the toning is really not in question. It shows proper color scheme and progressions for a bag toned Morgan, it has proper elevation chromatics, and it has pull away toning. Additionally it was graded before the existence of the toned coin market. I am starting to wonder whether the fact that this coin resides in a rattler slab has anything to do with the price realized. Another factor might be some unknown provenance to us, but known to the bidders. Is this a former Sunnywood coin?

No matter what the circumstances, I would value that coin between $1,500-$2,000. $14K is insane. If I was a friend of the buyer, I would buy him a new shovel every year for Christmas and hope he could unbury himself before his time is up!

 

We are not reading between the lines. Both you and the OP were clear in your accusations that people who specialize in selling toned coins are either coin doctors or fences for coin doctors. And I admitted in post #10 of this thread that the title of the thread "BEWARE OF RAINBOW TONING" on its own is prudent advice, but when followed by the content of his post, it becomes nothing more than fear mongering, and you joined in.

 

I gotta be honest, I don't see a whole lot of questionably toned coins in either PCGS or NGC plastic, new or old. Is there a specific series of coin that you are seeing this?

 

I see no reason to take sides in this, but.... in a recent thread a certainly knowledgeable fellow, after commenting on a coin's authenticity iirc, stated that he would not say why he felt it fake because doing so could help counterfeiters. While I can respect his position, I do not agree with the logic, and the situation is similar to what we have here. What good does it do to speak of toning methods employed by doctors, yet refuse to divulge their "secrets" if they are, in fact, known? Many here, myself included, often speak of the importance of educating collectors, so why when it comes to toning methods must there be this big secret? Is supposedly protecting a few, without any personal benefit, really that important if the toning market is indeed built upon a false pretense?

 

It would depend on the series, I would think. Granted, my most recent submissions have been to PCGS because I like the optics of the newer holder. I hope NGC follows suit soon.

 

It's mostly been modern clad coinage. I'll do a better job of documenting it and will come back at a later date with some actual data.

 

Until recently, I would agree with your evaluation, and my personal threshold would be around the $2k mark (and yes, I'm sure the anti-toning crowd will think I'm nuts). With that said, the current market is getting crazy. I have seen a number of common date "monsters" that were nice but that didn't knock my socks off sell for high four figures to low five figures! AB and maybe a few others are effectively creating enormous bidding wars and controlling the market. If and when one of them drops out (e.g. retirement), I think the monster toned Morgan Dollar market will fall back down to more realistic levels.

 

I think I understand it, now. If he knew it will tone, it's AT, and if he didn't know it will tone, it's NT. If he was smart, it's AT, and if he was plumb stupid, it's NT. Yeah, that clears it up...

These criteria are arbitrary. Don't you guys get that, yet?

 

Thanks, Lehigh, but about that blue 1949 (D? Can't tell.), I agree with the AT assessment, but I have seen '62 Jeff proofs that blue still in the pliofilm and envelope. Not all that many THAT blue, but still some. Special case?

 

No, it doesn't CLEAR up squat, but it does SUM it up. And yes, that bugs me too, as much as any other aspect of this topic, and I've been to talks on this topic since the mid-90's. The more I see, the less I feel I know. I don't care for that feeling. Doing one's due diligence and reading and studying and EXPERIMENTING more isn't supposed to leave you feeling less certain, especially in light of the seemingly unlimited dogma surrounding this topic.

At the end, it's the rock-certain dogma that disturbs me most. Reminds me of gamblers who insist they have "a foolproof system".

 

Do I detect a condescending tone, Doug?

 

They lose more money than anybody. Referred to as "system players," the casinos and tracks love them. I know a system player who lost everything he owned playing the horses. Still addicted, needing his "fix," he switched to making mind bets. He ended up losing his mind.

 

Hi Lehigh. For the first coin, are you saying that the purple makes it artificial? I have one (and have owned at least seven) steel blue nickels that weren't artificially toned (toned while in my possession in storage). I found that the presence of cardboard (acidity), vog (sulfur & acidity) and humidity natural result in those colors.

 

This is the very nature of science and life generally. People tend to fear the unknown and overreact, as I believe that at least some of the posters are doing in this thread.

 

The answer very clearly lies within this thread. We've heard it at least twice and with a great example.

Simply move to Hawaii or near Yellowstone and simply house your coins in Dansco albums for several months.

Apparently we have two members that this is happening to, AND one member who received a cleanly graded coin WITH an explanation by PCGS as to why Hawaii produces easily toned coins.

Sheesh I'm not even that smart and its obvious that simply moving to a toning conducive environment would appreciate the value of your collection significantly.

 

Seems like a legit way to tone your coins and mitigate the 'Intent' factor.

So we have an example of this happening by accident, so why can't a savvy dealer figure this out? Why can those coins tone quickly in a sulfur rich environment and something like that can't be reproduced artificially?