Beware of rainbow toning

In my previous post, I clearly explained "air transfer toning." Unless air has suddenly become a solid or liquid, then I am aware that toning is caused by gasses. Do you understand that the concentration of H2S that causes rainbow toning usually comes from a sulfur rich solid source? That is why the coins in the middle of the bag of Morgans don't tone but the ones in contact with the bag do tone. That is why coins in albums will develop rainbow toning while coins in 2x2 won't.

Increasing the concentration of the gasses might speed up the process but with high levels of concentrated H2S, you wont be able to achieve a rainbow pattern, just monochromatic toning that covers the entire area of the exposed coin.

Are you saying that all you need to do in order to recreate the look of a "bag toned" Morgan Dollar through artificial toning is simply increase the level of H2S that the coin is exposed to?

 

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It's just not fair, why do you keep torturing us?.....

 

And if so, that is an incredibly naive assumption for them to make. For every 100 toners, maybe 1 or less (over a larger population) is a true monster worthy of a good premium.

 

The essential difference between AT and NT, the one that MATTERS, is intent, not time. That strikes me as an awfully important, yet difficult to prove, thing. Natural toning can happen fast, but usually doesn't. Artificial toning is usually fast, but not necessarily. At any rate, resting the distinction on "intent" raises the same problems that criminal offenses requiring the element of intent do - really difficult to prove. All we have, whether at NGC or PCGS or Vic's cabinet, or wherever is educated guesses. We can HOPE there is more education than guess in the process, but I am somewhat skeptical of that. I smell a whole lot of guess wrapped up in reputation that may or may not be fully deserved.

 

OP, there is another interesting thread just started recently concerning altered DMPL/PL coinage or those that are other than described. By the logic in your opening post, I guess that means that you should absolutely avoid PL/DMPL coins together? Better yet, raw problem coins are often manipulated, so we should avoid raw coins all together. But, hmm, the TPGs haven't always had it together either, maybe we should just avoid coins totally?

And I don't say this to be a jerk, but to point out the flaw in your logic. The fact that you or others may not be able to authenticate toning as natural, doesn't mean that others should. Nor does it mean that toned coins should be avoided any more than your PL/DMPL coinage.

 

Original or not, some of the prices paid for toners are simply stupid IMO. I guess to each his/her own.

The most egregious (and silly) I have seen lately was $14,100 paid for this 1882-S PCGS MS65 CAC Morgan in the February Legend Auction. I'm sorry, but $14K for a coin like that is grounds for someone having their head examined, IMHO.

 

Intent is an absolutely worthless criterion. Intent is subjective. So if I place a coin in a most environment with a source of sulfur knowing that it will tone the coin, is that NT or AT? What if grandmother does the same think with a damp, leaky closet and moth balls or other source of sulfur? To be sure, old granny isn't a coin doctor (or is she?)?

 

That is a different can of worms. Many are advocating avoiding toned coins at all. To be fair, I do collect toned coins, and I would NOT have paid 5 figures for the coin you posted. I don't deny that some segments of the market have gone a bit crazy, which is why I am limiting my purchases and focusing on other areas at the moment.

 

OK, I'm going to nit-pick...moth balls don't contain Sulfur. Most cointain Chlorine, but not Sulfur.

 

Glad you mentioned this.

Is this what you see?



Buried in the above "muck" are some blues.


Proof coin pictured above.


NT gone bad............

Not the best pictures but certainly illustrative of what Dansco toning for the SAE's looks like.

 

OK, I was thinking of a repellant product available that contained this product and other stuff. But the premise is still the same. If grandmother includes a source of chemicals that inadvertently end up toning the coins, is she a coin doctor?

 

Nobody is "slamming" toned coins and those that sell them. They are simply stating to be wary with what you buy as the coloring can be recreated through means other than what is commonly accepted as standard storage procedures. In other words "Accelerated Toning" (AT).

Of course if a chemical is carefully applied to a coins surface to create the "appearance" of toning, then all bets are off.

The real problem in this entire scenario is that folks simply do not KNOW whether or not the toning was "accelerated" other than by the word of the one selling the coin.

Slabbed or not, nobody REALLY knows and since the end result can be duplicated using various techniques, it's wise to be wary and not step too far out on the limb through knowledge of reality.

 

Yours is AT, and Granny's isn't. Simple.

 

CAC coins sell at a premium.

 

It doesn't sound like that to me. The OP's message (both explicit and reading between the lines): Those that specialize in toned coins are likely coin doctors, the market is flooded with AT coins, and this market should be avoided (i.e. "no more rainbows for me").

This of course, is hogwash.

 

Not that much of a premium.

 

It is anything but "simple." There is no principled difference there. Regardless of intent, the end result is the same and that is what matters.

 

Then the difference between being a "coin doctor" and not being one is nil, rendering the concept meaningless.

 

But AT is distinguishable from NT, which suggests something very different. And I am more interested in this from a classic coin stand point.

 

But, but it's in an OGH!

Caveat: I do like and own toned coins, but I couldn't or wouldn't pay that premium for the coin pictured.