Beware of rainbow toning

Good point! The other possibility would involve a conspiracy, and I'm the last one that wants to open that can.

 

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Does it have to be only one side?

 

Sure. But the more toning equals more money

 

In order for what you are saying to be true, the number of people with the requisite knowledge to AT coins and get them past the TPG graders would have to be incredibly small. If that is the case, it proves my point as to how difficult it is to do. You can't have it both ways. It can't be incredibly easy to do, yet only a few people know how to do it. How many people in this thread alone have tried their hand at coin doctoring? And it isn't stupidity Doug, greed will always trump smart. Since we both have an extensive gambling background, I will use a gambling analogy. Why do you think most blackjack card counters get caught?

You ask Vic if he understands toning in such a way that I am forced to ask you the same question. Do you understand what causes coins to tone? You act like the only two factors are metal and hydrogen sulfide gas. You ignore all of the other factors that influence corrosion rates. Temperature, humidity, and atmospheric pressure all play a role in the toning process. So it is not as simple as finding the correct concentration of H2S in order to replicate natural toning.

Once you have found the correct conditions of H2S concentration, humidity, temperature, and pressure, you still need to manipulate the last remaining factor which is most important to a coin doctor, TIME! So how do you increase corrosion rates? Well you can increase temperature and humidity but then you have changed the original conditions and will likely end up with a different toning pattern or color progression than that achieved by natural toning. You submit that it is easy to rapidly increase the time that it takes to create rainbow toning by changing the factors that create rainbow toning without changing the resultant toning. I say you are full of it. Can it be done? Obviously it can since some have succeeded in the past. But it certainly isn't easy and it takes a great deal of knowledge to execute successfully.

Then you go on to claim that you can replicate certain toning patterns which adds a whole new dimension into the conversation. Instead of immersing a coin into a sulfur rich atmosphere, you are talking about creating a thin film interface of graduating thickness over the surface of a coin over the course of a few hours or days. This would require that the concentration of the gas change as it is exposed to the surface of the coin.

Consider how a Morgan Dollar tones. The coin is exposed to a sulfur rich source (the canvas bag) and the area of the coin closest to the source will exhibit the most advanced toning. The air transfer toning process that takes decades under natural conditions causes the thickness of the toning layer to decrease as you get further away from the sulfur source. It is the variation in toning thickness level that yields the different colors. This can best be seen by examining Sunnywood's classification system.


A Color Chart for the Thin Film Color Progression




In the example shown above, the sulfur source would have been located between 10 & 11 o'clock where the toning progression is most advanced. Then as you move across the surface of the coin, the thickness of the layer changes as does the color. So how do you propose that a coin doctor can accomplish replicating this toning pattern? Most people understand that you would need to force the H2S gas across the surface of the coin. Problem solved right? Wrong! Forcing the gas across the surface of the coin may accomplish a toning progression but it then brings "elevation chromatics" into the equation. The coloring of the recessed letters of LIBERTY are less advanced than the toning seen on the adjacent areas which are of a higher relief. For example, the letter "Y" is Magenta Blue (N) while the surrounding area is Blue-Green (Q). When a forced gas AT operation is used, there is usually no change in color based on the sudden change in relief.

You argument about this topic is that same that you employ about every other topic. You say "I have seen it, I lived it, I know it is true!" I'm not interested in what you say you have seen, or because you say so. I am interested in what you can prove. Given your extensive experience and ease with which you claim it is possible to create an AT coin that can pass for NT, it should be easy for you to contact a person you know who can create a coin for us showing before and after photos. Until you or someone else can show me that they or someone they know can do it, I will refuse to admit that it is EASY!

 

What is considered artificial? I am so confused by this.
For example I had a Silver Maple from 2015, I wrapped it in a microfiber cloth that I use to clean my iPad with. This was to keep it from getting damaged before I put it in a capsule or holder.
Wouldn't you know that the Maple started to tone in a few days with blue hues?
Was that artificial? I didn't do anything on purpose?
Is that considered doctoring?
How old does a coin have to be before it is considered natural?

 

Amen brother. I once wrapped a rubber band around a bunch of Maple Leafs still in the original RCM plastic pouches and the band toned the top and bottom one right through the plastic! Apparently .999 silver tones if you look at it wrong, and gets neat radial tones from sitting in a Dansco for a few years. .900 silver seems a little more stable. Okay, a LOT more.

 

Hmmm...your basing your proof on a ASE in a PCI holder? WoW.

 

AGREED!!!!

 

I completley disagree!!!! My avatar is an 1993 ASE beautifully toned coin graded by PCGS. The coins were stored in Dansco albums in a home I lived in when I lived on the North Shore, Hawaii. The salt in the air caused this toning I was told by PCGS themselves. So....I do believe they can tone. Are there others that are AT? OF COURSE...just not all of them.

 

This is an absolute generalization. There are many legitimately toned rainbow coins, and there are AT coins. DO you, as a newbie, honestly think that you can outthink PCGS and NGC in making the determination as to market acceptability? DO you honestly think that the TPGs haven't seen every possible experiment in artificial toning??? It is akin to asking a traffic cop if he hasn't heard every single excuse for speeding--it is just something that is within their expertise to a significant extent. We have had this debate, and the OP is just stirring the pot to a degree that is completely unnecessary. DO I advise NOT to buy uncertified toned coins, due to the possibility of coin doctoring-- YES. Do I advise people who like toned coin to stay away from them, as TPGs haven't seen every toning experiment gone bad under the sun? No way.

 

The same happend to my coins and NONE of my coins are AT!!! So THERE I SAID IT!!! =) ROFL

 

Can I put that quote in my sig line??

 

Are you insinuating that because the coin is in a PCI holder that is AT? You obviously missed the fact that PCI stated that the coin was 100% white when they graded it. These PCI inserts are well known for imparting toning on coins. So the coin was graded with a PCI green label and then toned inside its holder within the last 15 years. I would call that definitive proof.

 

He is a new member here but stated he has 40 years in coins. I'm not vouching for him. I'm just pointing out that being new to a forum doesn't mean you are new to coins.

 

I asked for AT coins in PCGS holders and you posted one, thanks. I don't find that coin beautiful, I don't find that toning pattern market acceptable, and I don't care that PCGS graded it. I live at the beach and my coins don't tone like that from salt air. Who from PCGS told you that?

 

Yup, and old small ANACS slabs weren't chemically inert either. I've got a 1955 PF67CAM nickel that is in a small ANACS, and it is a holy mess now. I can't even make out the cameo contrast any more with as hazed up as the fields are now.

 

So by your definition, a coin that has been in an album for 50-60 years must be AT, huh? Or an envelope from a century ago? Or even an original mint bag that was tucked away for more than a century (e.g. Battle Creek hoard)? Or stored in a desert vault (Binion hoard)? Taco Bell napkin? My windowsill? An old purse/wallet? An old trunk?

 

So for all of the anti-toning crowd out there: If a coin is a 150 years old and is 100% blast white, shouldn't we call it ARTIFICIALLY UNTONED? If a coin that old is blast white, the odds are very high that it has been chemically manipulated. The same cannot necessarily be said to be true of toned coins.