Beware of rainbow toning

The guy that makes these does not try to defraud and makes it known that these are created "art" pieces. They sell for a descent premium because they are pretty, not because they fool anybody into thinking that they are naturally toned. (At least I hope not). I have seen them marked as natural by flippers though who claim that they are natural. I like them, but wouldn't really want one though.

 

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I'm someone who doesn't collect toned coins. I do own a few but I consider just two or three examples not necessarily a collection of them. I also must be the odd fellow because rainbow toning does not appeal to me. I like a nice toning pattern around the edge and subtle toning on the details. After that, they look un-natural to me, similar to a painted or colored coin. (Which I don't have at all.) I like the quality engraving and the natural patina of U.S. classic coins and even the older European ones. But I will admit, one of the prettier coins I ever saw, was a toned coin featured in a Heritage Auction, at an ANA Convention, in Chicago. I don't remember it's selling price, but they had it on the bourse floor for everyone to see. Very few people walked by without taking a very serious look at it. It was gorgeous!

 

I just stay away from toned coins altogether. I have one coin that is toned, and its my 1998 S Kennedy Silver matte proof. It has even toning around the edges of the obverse, but it graded a 69. The dealer at my LCS seems to think it should have gone 70, his reason for the lower point was because of the toning. I don't know if that is true or not, I'm not NGC. I don't hate toning, but I know enough to know you better darn know what you're doing when buying toned coins, that's for sure.

 

We need a Timothy Leary cameo.

 

They are both unethical. It doesn't matter that only one is illegal.

Just so we're clear, are you claiming that you don't know that I have been selling toned coins & Jefferson Nickels on E-Bay for the last 3 years?

So you opinions on this subject are based upon your fledgling attempt at coin doctoring. Thats great!

Those coins are not getting by the graders at NGC or PCGS, even the OP has agreed with that. There are a bunch of clowns on E-Bay who doctor coins and create some wild outrageously artificially toned coins. Bphis is one of those sellers. However, he clearly states that the coins are AT so he is not trying to deceive anyone. His coins are obviously AT, so the only people who would be deceived in the first place are complete noobs. So it seems that everyone is protected from Bphis.

But we are not talking about the likes of Bphis. You and the OP are taking shots at people who sell NGC & PCGS certified rainbow toned coins with the insinuation that we have a secret source for these coins, meaning a coin doctor who can get coins past the graders at NGC & PCGS. Since you don't think I am in the group, I wanna know who you are referring to? Are you talking about Shane? How about Brandon Kelley? Your opinion in this thread is nothing more than fear mongering as you have absolutely no proof to support your accusations.

Is that all you got? If AT coins is a rampant problem that necessitates a blanket BEWARE statement, you guys should have no shortage of examples to show me. You have to do better than that.

So you think that the number of rainbow toned coins is increasing. Why, because you see more of them? The reason you see more is because it is much easier to photograph them with advances in digital photography and much easier to share them with the world with the expansion of the internet. We have gone from Heritage using this as their photographs in 2002:



to this in 2011:



The apparent increase in toned coins over the last decade is an illusion. They have always been there, they just haven't been online for everyone to see. The only series where I would expect to see constant expansion in the numbers of toned coins relative to untoned coins would be from the 20th century modern silvers that toned up nicely in both mint sets and albums. Many of the untoned examples still are not worth having them graded while the rainbow toned examples can draw a price that justifies the grading cost. But even in that scenario, there is absolutely nothing sinister. Now, if 200 rainbow toned Peace Dollars suddenly show up on the market in NGC holders, then we have a problem. Right now, both TPGs do an excellent job of weeding out questionably toned coins.

 

If you like toned coins, and I'm definitely NOT in that camp, why does it matter whether the toning is Natural or Artificial? The result looks the same. To me, toning is corrosion.

 

I prefer to stick with Doug's response.

"You can pick any naturally toned coin that you want, and a skilled person can duplicate that toning in a matter of hours. And it will be 100% indistinguishable, by anybody or any method, from what you chose as your naturally toned coin."

For this reason, the OP is right on target.

 

+1

If you are inclined to doubt this wisdom, try it yourself. I recommend a significant but not lengthy time commitment to experimentation - like a 3 day weekend without great sports. Dabble. Try stuff. Only on very common dates in the right metals. If you don't get AT LEAST one coin that looks exactly like a coin in a major coin auction catalog with a gaudy grade that some moron verbally made love to in the catalog description, consider a trade school.

One does not need to be Weimar White, folks. The chemistry needs no degrees. It's there for all. To pay significant premiums for toning???

Ome-say umismatists-may are umb-day.

 

In order to avoid being scammed, know what you are doing and you'll be fine. Many collectors are intimidated by true monster toned Morgan Dollars; however, there are several ways to authenticate the toning based on progression, pattern, elevation chromatics, and other clues. And Morgans do tone wild colors because of how they were stored - in canvas bags, in vaults that had moisture problems until the beginning of the 20th century when the treasury department fixed the problems it had, and prior to 1901 coal was used as a heat source producing a source of sulfur that promoted and accelerated toning. And my source of information on the storage conditions is from Roger Burdette. This produced ideal conditions for the bag toned Morgans that are offered on the market.

As for your comments that DMPL coins cannot be faked, this is not true. As has been alluded to, some people will use bondo or oils to attempt to create a cameo effect, and polishing of the fields can create artificial mirrors. Now you might argue that these should be obvious, but the tale tell signs of manipulation on these would be just as obvious to you as AT coins are to a collector who truly understands toning and the toned coin market.

Last, regarding the silver eagles, there are some that have toned because of the way that they were stored, and the PCI holders have provided some bullseye toning. Nevertheless, there are several pieces out there in TPG plastic that I don't care for and believe are suspect as well. The bottom line for me is I could care less whether the ASEs are market acceptable or not, I don't like them.

 

I would start hoarding blast white Morgan and Peace Dollars and storing them in Danscos in droves. If you're lucky, maybe you'll end up with a nest egg to help you when you retire.

 

We use a different formula in Pennsylvania. We don't have volcanos. We use mostly fatty meats, copious amounts of beer, perhaps some cabbage or other carbohydrate source. Shake gently. Then we wait ... Occasionally we need to jumpstart the mixture with just a few slightly long-in-the-tooth hard-bolied eggs.

"This message has been brought to you by the Pennsylvania Association of Methane and Hydrogen Sulfide Providers. Methane and HS - It's a Gas!"

 

And everyone scatter.........Kurt's about to blow.......

 

Nah, not appropriate here. Waiting for a Cardiac Cath job on Monday morning. And I have a roommate.

 

I'll make sure to pass on your remarks to Mr. Feld

 

And why shouldn't you parrot another one of Doug's fantasy facts. There is no coin doctor in the world who can recreate any pattern that he wants and there is not coin doctor in the world who bats 100% against the TPGs. If this were possible, you wouldn't need to worry about toning premiums because they wouldn't exist. If it were so easy to get AT coins past the TPGs the supply of AT coins would cause premiums to essentially disappear.

Do you personally know anyone with the skill to create an AT coin that can pass muster at either PCGS or NGC?

And that question stands for any other blowhard in this thread who thinks that artificially toning coins can be done by anyone with high school level chemistry skills!

 

I wanna see the best AT coin you can create. No excuses! I wanna see a before photo, photos of your chem lab, and a photo of your AT creation that is going to get graded by either PCGS or NGC.

It is time for all the blowhards to put up or shut up!

 

Because most AT coins look awful.

 

I don't intentionally create AT coins. I don't mostly like deeply toned coins, nor do I like blast white usually. There is a "normal for its age" tone that is easier to recognize than it is to describe. I have accidentally created several AT coins, and then reversed them to bring them back closer to normal. Then I have done controlled experiments to confirm how to it on demand, and I was able to, but not with 100% success. There are factors involved that I still don't understand. Perhaps it's trace contaminants on a particular coin. I am working on producing a video/Keynote presentation showing the entire process. The difficult part is photographs in the oven.

The process IS fully reversible, because it is itself is a reversal of the TRULY ESSENTIAL process of coin dipping, not the one using any commercial product or anything in Weimar's book. It turns out that thiourea is the key item, not the acid. Any acid can be used, even citric acid like that used in foods. When thiourea is in an acidic solution, it removes sulfides of silver from a coin. When it is in an alkali solution, it DEPOSITS sulfides on surface silver. I gave a Money Talks presentation on this at ANA Chicago 2014. I can't help it if you weren't there and the numismatic press didn't cover it. CoinWeek will eventually have it available on DVD. There are NUMEROUS chemicals used in old-school black&white photography that can be used, either as intended or by diluting them, that can be used to AT silver coins. But there's more. Since copper is on the same column in the Periodic Table as silver is, some of the reactions have effects on cents, clads, and nickels, too.

But yes, there is still a need for a much closer look at the process WHILE IT IS HAPPENING, and I'm working on precisely that.

 

I have known several folks that could get stuff past the TPGs. I have done it myself. They don't do it every time but they can do it. No way I would give names but some here would know them from the coin forums.