The risks of buying raw coins.

I just wanted to post a thread for some of our newer collectors, as certain issues keep coming up with greater frequency, as to whether or not coins are genuine, or are they able to be graded. My preface is that this is not a commercial for TPGs, nor is it a warning away from buying raw altogether--the fun of having a raw coin in hand, and finding a nice one of any series is a thrill. However, there are certain caveats for purchase of unslabbed merchandise, especially on eBay. As folks have ascertained, especially by negative experiences, there are a lot of dubious sellers on eBay. There are also a lot of honest, decent sellers, who will give you (the new collector) some really lovely coins so as to start or fill out a growing collection. Here are some issues to consider:

1. Is the price too much of a bargain? Look at the price guides (PCGS, NGC, Greysheet if you have it, etc). If it is artificially low, chances are that the coin is NOT what it is advertised to be, or worth one's time.
2. Be careful of certain series. Morgan Dollars are notoriously counterfeited, and some of the fakes are really good. They will pass magnet tests, and pass even more detailed scrutiny. Look at these coins carefully, and compare with photographs of genuine coins--look for positioning of mint marks, and lettering. Look at the overall devices and see if the proportions are appropriate. PCGS photo grade does give examples of the coins in various grades, so it can be a useful tool. Assume that raw Morgans may be fakes, but not necessarily, and counterfeiting common dates can be very profitable, as many people do not question whether or not one would go to the trouble to mass counterfeit an easily obtainable coin--answer is that they will.
3. Grading raw coins is extremely subjective. Learn to grade--if necessary, set aside some money for the purchase of coins that you don't care if you lose money. Remember, that just because somebody says a coin is 'BU," that has no meaning as to whether or not a coin really is BU, or a cleaned and buffed circulated coin, made to look shiny and bright. Also assume that many raw toned coins can be artificially toned with ease. Blast white coins from the 1800s can be easily dipped to make an unattractive coin look better than it is--however dipping always removes metal. Correct dipping is an art.
4. Avoid certain series in the raw, unless you know them well. It is estimated that probably more than 50% or more of Trade Dollars on eBay that are raw are either counterfeit, or damaged. Buy them with extreme care, or don't buy them at all. Slabs can be counterfeited as well, so be careful.
4. BUY FROM A REPUTABLE DEALER. Read this again. Okay, so you have read it. Read it again. BUY FROM A REPUTABLE DEALER. Your chances of getting a really nice coin that is raw is increased many times over if you buy from a high integrity source. If you don't know from whom to buy, just ask--there are many sources for great dealers on this site.
5. If you buy moderns, try to get them from the US Mint if they are available. If not, look for ones sold in original mint packaging with the box, and certificate of authenticity to avoid fraud.
6.Expect to make mistakes in grading, and expect to buy coins that are not graded properly--it has happened to ALL of us. No shame in learning from experience.
7. Buy the raw coins for your own enjoyment, not for investment. It takes a lot of skill to cherry pick for investment purposes--remember, this is a hobby, and hobbies are fun.
8.Don't impulse buy, and jump all over the place. Stick to one series, and compare coins--if you're looking for dollars, stick with dollars so you can compare them with other examples. If you go off in too many directions at the same time, confusion can abound.
9. Talk to friends and fellow collectors. Compare experiences. If there are shows around, go to them as a spectator first, and a buyer later on. Get some experience in the coins that you intend to purchase.
10. Read. Either read books on the coins that interest you, or read articles, price guides, and grading standards online. Knowledge is very important in being able to make a smart decision regarding whether or not a coin is appropriate for you.
11. Most of all--don't buy a coin that does not appeal to you. Really nice coins tend to 'Jump out" from others of similar date, series, and kind. Eye appeal is super significant in this area. If it looks wrong, DON'T BUY IT. If it looks beautiful, and doesn't seem to have issues, it will make you happy for a long time.

Please feel free to add suggestions to this thread. Thanks for your time in reading it.

 

Log in or Sign up to hide this ad.

12. See if there is there is some provenance (history) to the coin. A (hopefully verifiable) listing of previous owners that is more than 20-30 years old (before Chinese counterfeiting became prevalent) reduces the possibility of the coin being a counterfeit.
However, there were counterfeits of circulating coins as early as the American Revolution (some of which are collectible in their own right), so reread the previous 11 items.

 

Along with "buy from a reputable dealer," I would add "go to coin shows." Why? You're likely to find a lot of reputable dealers there. A lot of dealers specialize in particular niches, and they will gladly tell you what those niches are. Use this information; buying from a specialist is a good way to acquire quality coins and to develop an eye for quality coins. Avoid the tables that have as many watches and jewelry as coins. By and large, I've found the quality of coins at tables like that tends to be lower than tables that only have coins.

The flip side of certain series being heavily counterfeited is that certain series are rarely counterfeited. These are good ones to buy raw. Memorial cents, Jefferson nickels, Roosevelt dimes, Franklin and Kennedy Halves, and most commems don't seem to be counterfeited very often at all. Other series, like Mercury dimes, have a lot of common coins you can acquire in nice grades that are also rarely counterfeited (i.e. pretty much anything after 1934).

As @Morgandude11 says, definitely don't impulse buy. Work to develop a discriminating eye, so you know when you're looking at something special. At any dealer, show, or auction site, there are probably 100 fairly common coins for every 1 special piece. Learn to spot the special ones. They're not always expensive, either.

Avoid buying key dates raw until you can not only grade them, but authenticate them as well. And buy them from a dealer with a return privilege.

 

I am not a huge fan of slabs, but cannot disagree with Morgandude's points. However, to me the one overriding point needs to be KNOWLEDGE. The huge risk, (and it is a huge risk and will grow over time), with slabs is what if they continue to fake the slabs? A coin in a slab is MUCH harder to prove its a fake, since many of the diagnostic tools you would use cannot be performed. So no matter how you collect its truly imperative you learn about coins and how to identify fakes. If you wish to use slabs, (and there are some very good cases I would even use slabs), learn to identify the slabs properly and do not ONLY rely on the slabs for your protection. I have seen some pretty convincing fake slabs with fake coins inside.

Having said that, its an excellent post by Morgandude, (as usual), and a very important point for newer collectors to truly stop, read, and incorporate into their hobby.

 

Definitely be extra careful with the purchase of raw key dates. That was great advice above from Paul. Key date purchases is a topic unto itself.

 

Ideal coins was a company that made copy coins in 1960 . Albany coin in Albany NY was the owners of this upstate New York and sold exactly to weigh and size metal to. They didn't make Gold copies. But did make 90% silver copper and bronze Wheat cents and large cents copies that could fool the best . As there was no rule in place that made them mark coin as copy til ANA made government do this 1970
I am sure that some people have gotten them and not known.China fakes are out there plus Ideal coins American made copies. If you have a comics book collection there could be a ads on back page for 1909-S Lincoln Wheat cent this where they came from. For 10 years they made copies and today you can still find them being sold. So key dates buy a graded one even if has genuine in grade.

 

Gallery Mint (no longer in existence) used to make high grade copies of 1790's us coins (copper, silver and gold). Thy did have COPY stamped on them, but more than one enterprising crook would either fill in the COPY and/or wear the area (where COPY was stamped) down. In at least one case, a Gallery Mint 1793 Wreath cent was altered so skillfully that it fooled 4 out of 5 copper dealers into believing it was a well-worn real Wreath cent.
I should say that there are diagnostics for the Gallery Mint coins, but an unwary person who didn't know were the COPY was supposed to be could be fooled.

 

Sellers like this one would like you to believe that commems are safe. I bought a Barber quarter from him that turned out to be fake, and at that time, nearly everything he was listing was fake (but described as genuine). I don't have time at the moment to see whether all the commems he's selling are still fakes, but this one certainly doesn't look too promising.

 

Jeff, those commems that you posted all look hinky. Those are the exact coins to be avoided--some look downright fake, and the ones that aren't look cleaned. That was a perfect example of my point on purchasing raw coins from a very reputable dealer. One may pay a bit more, but at least the chance of the coins being legitimate and not fake or problem coins is greatly enhanced.

 

Most of the stuff he has listed or sold are fakes, and his "Gallery Mint" pieces are not from the Gallery Mint. Fakes of copies.

 

I've always told people, young or old, that are interested in getting into coin collecting, to try to follow a ratio of 10:1 the first five years. That is, spend 10x more on books and reading about coins as you spend on buying coins, whether graded or raw. A little bit of knowledge can lead to a lifetime of enjoyment.

 

Imagine currency as an airplane. Think of some pieces as having an automatic pilot. It would be the TPG. It will fly the plane for you, but; if you can't do it yourself, you have no one to blame if it doesn't work and you crash instead.

 

I agree with @coleguy
Yes Book do help a lot more than one my think Knowledge is a big lifesaver and money saving. Internet has made that part a bit less of costly.

 

w/ anything being a key date(s) .... I would be certain to buy it in a slab, IMO

but educating yourself will save you a lot of money also

because there wouldnt be any question on the condition nor the value ( but negating the price is always fun =0) ) and plus you ll know it ll be a genuine piece/ item

 

Definitely. Buying raw coins is risky enough that even some experienced dealers are sometimes fooled by fakes. That doesn't mean you shouldn't do it, and, if you follow all the rest of the advice given here, it should be an enjoyable experience.

Confidence in my abilities (or relative lack thereof) is one reason I largely stay away from most things graded MS68 or higher, except for things that start at MS68, like modern commems. I can spot up to a 65 reliably; 66's and 67's look like "better than 65" and "way better than 65" to me. Past that, forget about it. I'll need to see another 10000 coins before I feel that confident.

Wow. I can't definitely identify anything of his as fake from his pictures, but one of his Oregon Trail halves didn't look right to me at first glance. His pictures are all funny-looking, he doesn't crimp his staples(!), and there's not a certified coin to be had in the lot. Those are all indicators of various degree that this is not a reputable individual, and I'd avoid dealing with him for sure.

I'm collecting classic commems now, and, let's just say, I won't be buying my Hawaiian, Lafayette, Alabama, etc. from someone like him.

 

Hello, I got here because I was interested in reading the posted article found on my facebook page. "The Risk of Buying Raw Coins"
So, after reading replies, I clicked the link you provided concerning ebay seller listing fakes. And, found that I had just bought a coin from this guy last week. I was already suspicious, 1) because I bought it far too cheaply, and 2) I found the same picture in a completed auction of his from about three weeks ago. (That auction brought six time what I paid, btw.) He received positive feedback from that auction.
The tracking number says that its at the PO today. Problem: I don't yet know that its fake. I don't plan to remove it from his packaging. I have saved all screen shots possible. And, I would love to have him get more than a slap on the hand.
Any suggestions?

 

1st don't know for sure it's fake.@Copper56
But if is contact eBay and PayPal follow the instructions. If not eBay someone else may have your answer.

 

Interesting about that seller, he has a rating of 99%plus. Has 5 neutral and 3 negatives in the past year, 4 of the 8 total claim counterfeit.
What surprised me is the people who received counterfeits but only made "neutral" feedback?
The seller states no refunds if you submit to a TPG. Slick, but I am sure Ebay would require a refund in the case of a counterfeit.
Seems there is quite a low risk for even deliberate crimes on Ebay.
Not a Commem collector, but the coins shown all have a pewter look to them. Its close, but there is a slight difference, and all of his look like pewter.

 

Thanks for the responses...
The problem with buyers only leaving neutral feedback is that the seller skates by and allowed to maintain his rating. Buyers leaving neutral usually do so because they were able to obtain a refund, and are happy to move on.
In each of the auctions with this same picture he stated that the buyer would receive the 'exact coin shown'. I will let you know tomorrow when I pick it up from the PO.
I've found with past irregularities that ebay is only interested in resolving a complaint, not in eliminating the source of the problem.