Thread ATS about "rampant gradeflation"

Oh, I'm sure saying how eye appealing I think it is, and guessing how eye appealing they think it is, is a world of difference. I agree; friend.

 

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Why should it matter that your opinion differs from those of the TPGs. All that should matter is the ability to predict how they will grade a coin.

Your constant attacks on the TPGs are very tiresome. Instead of resorting to a series of one liners, why not actually make an intelligent argument about why market grading is bad and why "your" method of grading is better. For all the disagreements I have had with Doug over the years, I give him credit. He has made his argument, made it very clear. I don't know what your stance is. Heck, I don't even know what type of coins you collect, or if you collect at all.

 

You want to see some of my coins, poker boy, my join date is 2-1/2 years before your first rattle out of the cradle, here, they're in the archives. You want to see my stances on your issues, go to your threads.

Oh, and quit trying to drag innocent people into your fights, like Doug, because you're too chicken to fight them, yourself. I think we'll all appreciate that.

 

Oh, whats the matter, truth hurt? You have not made a meaningful post since I joined this forum in 2008. All you do is troll threads, look for opportunities to post your one liners, and parrot Doug's archaic views on numismatics. Furthermore, nobody has debated Doug more fervently or frequently than me. I'm not the one backing down from the challenge here, so keep your clucking to a minimum, the rest of us are interested in discussing coins.

 

Keep the personal attacks coming, Lehigh. Show us who you really are.

 

You are comical, I'm not the one hurling personal attacks. You need to look in the mirror!

 

Give it a rest. Your problem is you're relentless in your personal attacks when people simply disagree with your positions. Look at your threads and see who goes off-subject and starts the personal attacks and learn something about yourself. You need to get that under control, friend. Just my opinion.

 

Im just gonna interject this here, since I dont have a dog in this fight.

Thats your last message, claiming that Lehigh is the propagator of personal attacks.

This is your quote prior to you last

And yet, just one post prior to these calling Lehigh out for personal attacks you posted this

Now I dont know about Lehigh, and I assume his skin is pretty thick to not even go at you over little stabs like this, but from an outsider viewing in, it would seem that you should practice what you preach if you want any respect from Lehigh, or other members viewing this thread.

Like I said, I am an outsider looking in on this one, but you cant call someone out for personal attacks, and when going back and re-reading, it was actually you doing the name calling.

Case and point, what does Lehigh playing poker have to do anything with coins or this particular discussion? Absolutely nothing but a verbal (or written) stab to cause emotions to flare.

 

What would happen if the TPG's didn't put ANY grade on a slab? Just slab a coin with a reference number? Only slab coins which are genuine and reject the rest. That way at least people who like to buy slabs would be assured a genuine coin, but as far as grade, you're on your own. Does anyone currently do this?

 

But then were back to the old days when one mans VF could be an G . The tpgs are not perfect , but they are a lot better than back then . Most sellers wouldn't state a coin was cleaned unless it was scrubbed with a brillo pad .If you went someplace to buy a coin it was a BU , but bring the same coin back to the same person and it would be an EF . It was a little crazy out there and I'd rather have the tpgs grade the coins . Just learn to grade to the best of your ability and compare coins in the same grade before buying and you'll do fine .

 

I have no experience with this but are you saying that a dealer would not also sell a coin at the grade listed on the slab and beat that same coin up saying it was overgraded if it came back through the door in the same slab? I agree that we should all learn to grade and spot cleaned coins but let's face it, if everyone wanted to learn those things, TPG's probably wouldn't be needed.

 

No , I was talking about the days before tpgs , when you'd buy coins raw . It was that there were as many different ways to grade as people and just about everyone graded differently .

 

I think we are splitting hairs here, folks.

When I see guys on another forum talking about buying MS-65 $20 Saint-Gaudens closer to "65.8" which are likely to be re-christened MS-66 or given CAC, it's getting nutty.

As I have said, I'm not a coin expert but I do know history. And decades ago before the TPGs you would have coins that might be misgraded on average 3-5 grades -- consistently !!

Today, if a coin is off by 1 grade -- and that's a minority of graded coins -- that's a HUGE improvement. And it is NOT the case that coins will continually be re-submitted and in 30 years all we will have from the MS category is a bunch of MS-62's in MS-65 slabs and a bunch of MS-65's in MS-68 slabs.

 

That's pretty much how it was. But think of this. If you knew what you were doing, you knew the grade, and you knew if it was cleaned.

We negotiated a lot, then. I recall generally how we'd deal with them. We knew the grade, the likely retail value, and their margins. They were brick and mortal coin shops. You saw one Income Statement, you saw them all. What we'd offer would hit their margins on the nose. When we were selling, and they didn't buy, they'd know the shop down the street was going to buy, because our offers left them a reasonable profit. When we were buying, and a coin was overpriced, they were trying to pluck a pigeon. Unless they got lucky, that coin was going to sit there in their inventory for a long time.

Part of the fun was all that. At the scale coins are traded, today, the TPGs do make the trades go easier, I will credit them for that.

 

Of course. You are correct.

The problem with your logic is that your argument is based on the unproven assumption that die cracks constitute flaws.

But the employ of flawed dies does not make a flawed coin. They make a perfect coin that shows the evidence of cracked dies having been employed, just as the unflawed dies also make a perfect coin. While the two coins are obviously different, both are perfect as struck and look exactly how they are supposed to look based on the state of the dies employed.

To restate a point I made in my earlier post regarding the intended appearance of a coin: "The engraver may alter the relief or elements of the original design of the artist. The press operator may deliberately increase die spacing to prolong the life of the dies resulting in a weak strike, or may deliberately employ cracked dies to get more use out of them. These are not mistakes but rather are evidence of the many hands at work in the coining process. A coin's intended appearance will vary and is a combination of these many deliberate elements."

Earlier in this thread...

And I 100% agree with what you are saying there, however, your argument that die cracks should produce a lower grade runs counter to what you are saying. The grade for both coins in your example should take into account the originality of the coin as struck and any wear, surface conditions, and marks occurring thereafter. Die cracks only enter into the picture when considering eye appeal. They are, as you said, "esoteric aspects of a coin, and that can only be determined by the individual considering buying the coin". You may find die cracks to be flaws, but many people find them to be neutral or even appealing. Eye appeal with something like die cracks is as subjective as toning, and is best kept out of the grade. Leave it to the market to decide the impact on value.

 

Jaelus, eye appeal is incorporated in the market grade. While before market grading it used to constitute esoteric aspects of a coin that can only be determined by the individual considering buying the coin, with market grading, the TPGs tell us what's eye appealing, not the other way around. They do it in their market grades.

 

I would disagree. If a coin was supposed to have a cracked die look, they would have engraved it into the die. I would guess the decision to employ a cracked die is a financial one.

 

A coin is only worth what someone will pay for it . I collect Bust halves by Overton # and die cracks can make an R-1 into an R-3 or any other # . I also like die cracks and die clashes as to me they add interest on the par nice toning does to a blast white coin . Do they lower the grade of a nicely toned coin , which is really corrosion , no they add a + or * .

 

Yes....and Eddie, I am sure you are one of the sharp ones...but for most of us (myself included) and for 99.9% of the collectors, they are NOT good enough to consistently get it right, without the TPGs things would be alot worse.

Would I buy a Morgan Silver Dollar for $100 if I knew I might be overpaying 2 or 3 grades ? Yeah, I probably would.

Would I buy a MSD for $500 if I knew I might be overpaying by 2 or 3 grades ? Maybe.....

Would I buy a $20 Saint-Gaudens for $3,500 for an MS-66 not knowing if it might really be an MS-64 worth $1800 ? NFW !!!!!

If you win some, lose some, I guess in the end you come out OK.

But for those who would lose ALL or MOST of the time -- the retail public -- the coin hobby would be the biggest loser.

We don't want this hobby and collecting to be the B&M version of those 3 AM coin infomercials selling $50 MSDs for $200 !!