I was wondering what the primary differences between world and US grading standards are. For example, I know FDC stands for "fleur de coin," and is commonly used to mean "uncirculated," and I've heard that cleaning is considered more acceptable to foreign collectors. Are there any good web references to foreign grading standards? I'd be particularly interested in those that apply to British large pennies. I've seen this, but it's not exactly clear to me, for example, where AU fits in. Thanks, and I hope I'm not asking too basic a question here.
I think that US grading services (PCGS, NGC, ANACS) grade all coins the same, foreign or domestic. A cleaned coin is a cleaned coin. I'm not sure about grading services in other countries. I would be interested to know how they treat such coins.
I'm actually a bit more interested in foreign collectors' attitudes toward cleaning. In the US, an ethical seller will note any detectable cleaning. Is this the case, with, for example, sellers in France or Great Britain?
I can't point you to any. If it will help, however, I can tell you what I've sort of "picked of on" along the way, if that should make any sense. Generally, and, probably not surprisingly, the British are more on the conservative, "blast white," "technical" side of the coin (notwithstanding the pun). It's not that they don't appreciate toning, it's just they're not as nuts about it as we are. "Market grading," and, I'm pretty confident you can bank on this, is total liberal French to them. As far as cleaning goes, I'll say they accept dipping, just as we're accustomed to, although provided it's done right.
So, dipping silver is considered acceptable? What about over-dipping, where the details remain but the luster is killed? Would that be enough to drop something from UNC to EF (do they even use AU as a grade)? And, what about copper (pennies specifically)? There's no good way to dip them and have it ever look right. Would it be any more or less likely to see coins that have been "off to see the whizzard," so to speak (by which, I mean either polished or harshly cleaned with abrasives)?
Paul, without getting too comical about it, yes, it's my understanding they're dippers, at least to a larger degree than we are. We value the toning, they don't, or, not as much, they value untoned. We're just kind of stuck with dips (ah, ha ha) because it was prevalent; thus, let's just call it, by default, but I don't know that it's as much the practice, today. Copper, of course, really doesn't have a dip, you know that. Really, just silver. FWIW, I never heard or saw anything that indicates they're any the more accustomed to cleaning than we are.
In Europe many collectors don't like to spend money on grading and can't possibly understand how services like CAC can be successful ... Why? Either most of their coins have been cleaned or have minor issues or they simply don't care about the exact grade. I talked to a couple of American dealers at the last show and basically many of their customers don't mind if a coin has hairlines or rim damage as long as it's authentic and cheap (!). I hate to say it,but I think there are more hoarders than serious collectors over here...
FDC does not mean UNC as such, it means 'Perfect' Flower of the Coin. Better than just UNC. Perfectly struck and free from bagmarks, from any defects at all. We do not have 'grading services' but that does not mean that people do not care about the standards of coins, or have to have them cheap, just that everyone makes up their own mind about the grade and price of a coin, according to how they see them. This strikes me as a freedom rather than a handicap. No-one would go round randomly dipping coins with original lustre and toning, just for the sake of a newly minted looking coin, but they'd not get all bunched panties about it either. I have no idea what collectors of modern junk want, but I'd only really be interested in pre-1950s stuff because it was after that date that the floods of commemorative non-coins and dime a dozen proof sets started to appear. The idea of agonising over imperceptable numerical differences in coins seems just plain silly. Better condition coins will generally sell faster for more money, as you'd expect, but it is a matter between the dealer and the buyer what the item is worth. Historically a huge amount of coin dealing was by mail order, and the most successful dealers were the ones whose customers were pleased with the condition of the coin they got, so there is a tendency to be a tad conservative and a shaky VF will be offered as Fine, rather than get people's hopes up too much. The idea of a company grading other graders is just hilarious, and the idea of trapping all coins in plastic boxes is considered a bit of a perversion. The description AU is used here but really it is like saying almost pregnant. The coin is a good EF or it shows no sign of circulation and is UNC. Coins that have obviously been cleaned will fetch less money. Simple. No one is much interested in errors, especially the tiny technical errors that so obsess some US collectors, and as far as I know no one is interested in searching coins in circulation for occasional older coins because you can buy a bucket full of pre decimal coins for a few pounds a hundred. Nothing before 1970 will be found in circulation. Decimalisation meant a complete re-coinage,and the holdovers, the shilling and the florin which persisted for a while in the original size have been replaced with smaller coins. I'd say that in general collectors outside the US are far more interested in world coins, as they are probably far more commonly encountered here and more people travel outside their native countries, for reasons other than to meet new people and kill them. Personally a nice EF coin is as good as I'd need, better is fine but I'd really not knock myself out financially for the sake of something just a tiny weeny bit less worn. Broadly speaking, collection is similar everywhere, just more of a matter of personal judgement and taste for non US collectors. "Market grading," and, I'm pretty confident you can bank on this, is total liberal French to them. If that is to mean something derogatory, liberal is considered good here, and quite a lot of us speak some French.
From a previous thread earlier today, I learnt that we have an equivalent service at:- http://www.coingradingservices.co.uk. Until then I had no idea of it and certainly cannot foresee a situation that I'd be inclined to spend £13.75 to £23.75 or more for someone's opinion and a bit of plastic on any of my coins. That said, I hover at the far cheaper end of the market with just the odd gold coin worth anything.
A lot of these CGS slabbed coins end up in London Coin Auctions. Don't understand why American collectors might get the idea that British collectors don't like toned coins. Most of my customers prefer them, especially older coins such as Anne or Geo III, These coins don't look right when they are bright.
I think most classic US coins are overpriced, so I've gravitated easily to world coins. Now I prefer world coins, mainly 1900s stuff. And there's tons to collect! I've thought a great deal about world grading and I think that previous response from someone over there is accurate. I've found the Canadian Red Book, which is fairly new, to be very helpful since it goes over grading of royal busts both in detail and concisely like the US guide. It's a very nice addition to have along with Krause's catalog and other things. Although I see AU grading is overlooked mostly, I wonder how strict world collectors are when it comes to sliders. I'm so used to looking for minute wear
And to answer that question, *most* sellers won't tell you unless you ask them. I expect a professional coin dealer to mention any obvious issues such as cleaning, but sadly, more often than not they'll tell you "who cares... it's a bargain"!
Gents- Is there a one stop shop website (guide) out there for "grading for dummy's"? A glossary showing all the letters/numbers/symbols on graded/slab coin?....For most or all of the U.S. grading companies? For example: I know what "DDO" means but I can't find what "FS-106 DIE 6" means.
The French "coin" = die. So Flower of the Die is probably a better translation of FDC. I generally see this corresponding to MS65+ coins if they're graded.
stldanceartist- BRILLIANT!! I don't know why I can't seem to find this stuff myself. Your links have been added to my bookmarks. Thanks very much! tj
