Why do you assume PCGS has no guarantee? Their guarantee is very similar to the NGC guarantee. You state that the PCGS company owners market only PCGS coins. Doesn't NGC do the same thing with NGC coins?
I think there is a bit of a misunderstanding here. I take it by CAC "vendors" you mean CAC Authorized Dealers. If so, then you don't quite have it right. The CAC dealer-members are not required to purchase any and all CAC approved coins that come their way. It's simply that CAC itself, and by that I really mean John Albanese (JA) will buy CAC approved coins at published levels. I believe he publishes there prices on CoinPlex for the most popular series, but really he will make offers on any CAC approved coins just by email or calling CAC. That's what it means to make a market, he is willing to put his money where his sticker is, and buy up these coins from dealers and collectors at a fair price. He then unloads these coins at places like HA, and back to other dealers who stock CAC approved coins. He makes a few percent on these transactions, and creates trust in the brand and liquidity.
Well, I'm pretty sure that PCGS already uses a 1000 point system internally, and they just dumb it down to the 70 point system before they slap the label on it. I think NGC does something similar too.
Thanks for your clarifications. I understand CAC much better now: JA and company doesn't just get revenue from submission fees. And creating liquidity isn't a bad thing...
PCGS has said themselves the average coin is in hand for less than 30 seconds. If they're using some mysterious 1000 point system, they're using robots from the future, not humans to grade them.
That is exactly what the sticker means. It (the coin) is correctly graded. The gold sticker says it is undergraded
Isn't this what CAC does? Basically a 700 point system? Take a MS63 for example. Doesn't CAC decide whether it is a 63.1, 63.5, or 63.9 or do I have this all wrong?
Insomnius got it. A coin needs to be on the edge of a big junp in value to justify the CAC fee. Like a 1891-CC Morgan which comes back from PCGS with a beautiful 65.
The above is simply not true. In my niche any coin worth over approximately $1,000-$1,500 becomes much more liquid to a large pool of buyers (both dealers and collectors) with a CAC sticker.
Tom's answer has me curious, and perhaps this is topic for a new thread, but I wonder where the sweet spots for coin liquidity is for the largest portion of buyers in states from uncertified, to certified, to certified with a cac sticker? I know there must be charts because every coin dealer I personally know pinches pennies like a baglady in front of a thrift store, so all advantages are, I'm sure, studied.
I have been actively buying coins for 3 years. Though that is a short time, I have noticed that CAC coins sell for higher prices and sell faster then non-CAC coins and much faster then raw. I understand over time that may change but for now that is the way it is.
To my knowledge Mark Salzberg and Rick Montgomery of NGC do not market coins as dealers like David Hall and associates currently do. Also note that David Hall and the rest of his buddies rarely if ever offer NGC coins. A case in point is the fact that Eric P. Newman coins are now appearing in PCGS holders and marketed by them. Sure PCGS has guarantees; I was only being funny. I've been told [with great arrogance] by a major dealer that many coins are not marketable in anything but PCGS holders. l'll buy coins, not holders. See why FTC people were concerned about certified coins being touted as investments back in 1987 ?
Buy any coin you like and do not worry how it comes(holder, raw, stickered, etc.). You will notice most times when I post a picture of a coin I do not include the holder - some cases there are holders, some there are not, some I crack out for my albums. I also typically do not post the grade anymore unless asked. I buy the coins I like even if they do not get a Doug sticker or any other sticker(and if people pay attention they will see I liked his post). The point is, I do not buy for him or anyone else - just myself. PS - I have several coins with pretty green stickers. It just so happened that one set I worked on the coins I liked the best had stickers on them - I do not always agree with the premiums, but sometimes I do - just depends on the coin. Enjoy the hobby!
NO I am in the same boat as you. Everyone is entitled to an opinion and here is mine. CAC and Star allocation, etc...are a gimmick. It is a way to make people have a warm and fuzzy about a coin they bought or intend to buy or even sell. And your right, in 10 years or so there will probably be some "gold" dot program that will give you confidence in the CAC system as people in general have to have some kind of reinforcement that they got the "right" coin at the "right" price. It exists so people can say to others (whether it's on eBay when they sell or buy or in coin forums like this) I have all these certifications listed on this coin; therefore what the Greysheet says I MUST get...I GET!!! Coins don't need TPG's...but TPG's need coins. You should be able to buy a coin with the same confidence raw as if it was slabbed. The coin makes the slab...not the other way around. We live in a world where we absolutley need justifciation or a letter grade for what we possess. This magazine says my car is better than yours...that TPG is better than that TPG...even though some of the graders have worked interchangeabley for the top 3 TPG's. What; did all of a sudden they lose objectivitiy becuase they work for ANACS instead of PCGS? I dont think so. Now, I know I will be attacked and given a sermon on why CAC, Star, ++ MUST exist, but REALLY they don't. Standards change every 30-40 years and sometime in the near future the MS-60 to MS-70 system will be obsolete. What then? I look at like this...one day when son inherits my coin collection...what will I say, "son come and hold this beautiful coin" OR will I say "son, come and hold this coin holder". Most humans are tactile and so I will hope I can say the first quote. Life is too short to sweat the small stuff. JMHO.
Yeah, they did. But at each TPG the graders are forced to follow whatever grading standards their bosses tell them to follow. They do not get to grade the coins according to their own personal grading standards.
At a 30K foot level, I agree with what you are saying. There are people in the hobby who use the TPG's and the stickers from CAC etal, to reassure themselves. It certainly would be nice if there were no dealers out there selling cleaned coins as problem free. It certainly would be nice if there were no dealers who sold doctored surfaces as problem free. It certainly would be nice if dealers fairly graded your raw coins when offering to buy them rather than deducting a couple points and making a lowball offer. But sadly, that's not the case. IMO, the reality is, some of the TPG's have provided a great service to the hobby. You no longer need to be an expert or view the coin in hand to be comfortable with a coin purchase. Now, that being said, I still think a collector needs to educate themselves on the hobby. I don't want to absolve the collectors role at all. I'm just saying the TPG's help protect us from the unscrupulous people in the hobby. I disagree with your assessment on the NGC "*" designation. All it indicates is that NGC thinks the coin has exceptional eye appeal. When viewing auctions, I want to view their "*" coins. I don't always agree with their assessment, but many of the coins that receive the special designation are very eye appealing.
