copper spots saint gaudens

Hello everybody,

Sent this coin to pcgs yesterday, hope for a MS 64 or MS 65....

What do you guys think about the copper spots....do they limit the coin in grading?
Are copper spots an important grading factor?

Sorry for the pics, but you can see the luster and the spots, too.




Thanks for help;-)

 

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where did you obtain the coin??

 

pictures are too blurry to even see if the coin is real

 

gold normally never has copper spoting on it.. did you get it xray tested..??

 

They are normal and fairly common, actually.

 

Copper is added for hardness and its this trace alloy creating this orange to reddish spots. Its natural and shows the coin has its original surface and I don't even collect this stuff. Leave it alone - word is it should not effect the grade. NGC has posted some information to confirm this fact. Sure if you can purchase a coin blemish-free ... greed is good ... blemish-free coins are better ... but no worries here ... IMO.
On copper coins ... carbon spots are inert. You can contact me privately I do make a coin cleaner privately for my own needs based on flurocarbon technologies strictly for verdigris and high grade copper surfaces. Good Luck.

John Lorenzo
Numsimatist
United States

 

Copper spots on gold indicate original surfaces, as there is copper in the alloy. They are not grade-limiting until they adversely affect eye-appeal. From what I can see in the pictures, that is not an issue with this coin.

 

Thanks for input especially to colonialjohn and messydesk.
I will try to shoot better pics after returning the coin from PCGS.
The coin is original and no fake but to be sure I have sent it to a TPG.
With a MS 65 grade I would be really happy.:-!

 

Who told you that? Copper is an integral part of our gold coins, and it often comes to the surface as spots before the coins are struck.

Chris

 

Yes report back.....best to make sure your camera has the anti-shake mode ON and also maybe brace the camera on the table that the coin is on to stabilize it.

Even with anti-shake, I find stabilizing the camera makes a world of difference.

 

Here is my $40 lesson from the FUN show this year. I wanted to buy an MS65 common date St. Gaudens double eagle. After finding a few, I found a decent one for $1600 and I bought it. I noticed 2 small copper spots and asked the dealer about them. He was kind of rude in saying, "NGC saw it when they graded it... those spots don't affect the grade." Gold was around $1200/ozt. at that time. During lunch I looked at the coin more and more and decided I didn't want those spots to be the first thing I thought of when I thought of my first St. Gaudens double eagle purchase. I then decided I would sell it. Herein lies the issue.

At the FUN show common date MS65 double eagles were selling in the $1600-$1850 range. I approached at least 7 dealers and they either gave me extremely low offers around $1400 or said, "Its got copper spots and I don't want it." I finally found a large buyer/seller of metals (who is a sponsor here I think) to buy it for $1560. I chalked it up to a $40 learning lesson. I was also paid in a check and had to waste some of my time trying to find a Chase bank in the area to cash it for me.

In looking at your photos I see 2 rather large copper spots around the date and several smaller ones near Liberty. Although the TGP may not deduct points for them, in my limited experience most dealers will. The spots are distracting and hurt overall eye appeal. Please keep us posted as what the TGP grades your coin.

 

You neglected to mention whether or not you tried to return it to the original dealer where you bought it. Did you? If so, what was his/her response?

Chris

 

I did not try to return it to the original dealer. I didn't care for the attitude and $40 wasn't worth my trouble to talk to him again. In hindsight I probably shouldn't have even purchased from that dealer. I eventually found a very friendly dealer who sold me a 1928 MS65 for $1600 later in the day.

 

I know how you feel. Every so often, I've had the unfortunate displeasure of running into a dealer like that at FUN. I remember one occasion when I stopped at a table where the dealer had his back to the display cases fiddling around with papers, and there were no other customers at his tables. I was looking at a George Washington medal for a minute or so, and when the dealer didn't bother to check if he had any customers, I said, "That's a nice looking Washington medal." Without turning around, he replied, "Yeah." I just happened to be in one of my "difficult" moods, so I continued standing there wondering how long it would take for him to turn around. Eventually, a woman approached his case to the left of me, and when the dealer turned his head slightly to the left, he noticed her and stopped what he was doing to help her. She looked at me with a strange look, and I looked at her with a shrug. After he attended to her, I just stared at him. He still didn't have a clue, and when he asked if he could help me, I said, "No, but you could really help yourself if you paid more attention to your customers. You just lost a nice sale."

I'll be willing to bet that he still didn't have a clue.

Chris

 

At swagge1:

I think you talk about a very common 1924 or 1927, the 1923 is definitely no common issue in MS 65.....;-)

 

Swagge, I hear where you are coming from and I think that's true of most smalltime buyers of Saints.

However, I know that if I had a much larger collection, having 1 or 2 with copper spots wouldn't bother me as much. In fact, I might welcome 1 or 2 on some of the less-expensive coins to show another factoid about gold coins.

 

I agree. Common date St. Gaudens in MS65 trade for a slight premium over spot and are pretty abundant. When I went to sell one every dealer that I contacted noticed the spots and devalued this coin because of them, regardless of the MS65 label. If they are devaluing a common date what will they do to a coin that is more rare? My point to the OP is it doesn't matter so much what the grade comes back from the TGP... if and when it comes time to sell most dealers would probably take quite a bit of money off of their offer due to those spots.

 

Post pics, please !

The premiums on Saints continues to dissipate....I bought my MS-65's 1924/1927 about 12-15 months ago when gold was in the same range but the price was about $250 higher.

Not sure but believed 1928's were a bit more expensive.

 

20-25% isn't huge and is way down from past years (I've posted the charts here; see below) but it's not a 'slight' premium, IMO. Slight would be 5-10%, like for ungradeds or maybe MS-63 and below.

Any idea what label it was indicating when it might have been graded ? Possibly when NGC/PCGS had looser standards ?

It might mean very little. A more rare coin in otherwise mint state condition is going to be tougher to find so while the copper spots might demerit, it's not like you have tens of thousands of TPG coins like with a 1924 or 1927 or 1908 NM.

Depends....for a common, yes...for a more rare date, maybe not.

We don't know when that coin was graded, today it might grade 1-2 levels lower taking into account the copper spots (or not).