question about auctions

It seems that many in the coin talk community use auctions quite often. I get the notice of vcoins auctions and recently started looking in the cng auction, but was wondering what are some of the other auctions that you like to use?

 

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I'm cheap so the only auctions I use are ebay and Vcoins which I had just begun using. CNG is a bit too much for me, but I do look at it and wish I had some of those coins, oh and sometimes Heritage but they are a bit pricey too.

 

One of the smaller venues that I enjoy is Scotsman Auction out of St. Louis. They hold just two auctions per year and have a nice catalog available for registered members. James Garcia, a member of the NGC forums, heads their department writing descriptions for the coins. One thing I have always admired about James is his knack for "telling it like it is". If a coin has a problem, he will tell you.

https://www.scoins.com/

Chris

 

Heritage is too expensive for me - my wife would kill me if I spent 1000$ on a coin and not on her. I just use Ebay "Buy It Now/Make Offer" auction formats and offer them a lowball price - if I get it great, if they reject my offer then no big deal.

 

The problem I see with auctions is that you have to decide on what you are willing to pay and compete with others who have to decide what they are willing to pay. This might not seem like much of a problem but it can result in paying a lot more or a lot less than what traditional wisdom would say a coin is 'worth'. CNG is a fine example of a good/great auction house but their prices realized for almost every sale includes coins that someone stole (that would be you, Steve, considering your recent post here) or that makes you wonder why anyone would bid that much. In some, few, cases a high price indicates that the coin was better than the seller realized and two bidders both decided to grab the 'sleeper'. In more cases it means that two people with more money than understanding of the coin market decided they wanted it and they wanted it now. I am not talking about the super high quality coins in every sale that probably really are worth more than any of us realize but the ordinary nice examples of something that will appear in almost every sale is similar condition.

For that reason, I believe auctions are a dangerous place for beginners who have any concern about what they get for what they pay and for those of us who easily get carried away and will bid more on an auction than something similar is being sold for at fixed price on vCoins. I have seen used copies of books still in print go for more than the new ones from the publisher.

If you follow this list you will see discussions of auction venues good and bad and see that we disagree on which category some of them fall into. I suggest you research back posts here for these discussions. Most recently, some of us differed greatly on the 'rules and practices' of some venues so I do insist you read and understand such things as additional charges (buyers' fees, postage, PayPal add on etc.). In the past we have seen some people upset because we recommended a seller without warnings so I believe it best here to suggest you read the posts here and develop your own list of places to consider.

If you have a lot of money to spend, you may benefit from the first link below; if you have less, the second.
http://www.sixbid.com/
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ACM-L/info

Both include sellers I would patronize and sellers I would not. Others here will differ on the distribution between the two.

 

I've dealt with Joe Sande in Nichols,Fla. Sends out a printed auction list every month, you bid by return mail and cross your fingers but I've won many nice items very reasonably and with patience.

 

From what is online about him, I was not able to see that he has ancients. Yes? Similarly, Scotsman suggested above seems to be a modern dealer judging only from their online material. Also, yes?

 

Thank you for all the input. One thing that makes me nervous about using ebay is that I'm not confident enough in spotting fakes, whether modern or even ancient counterfeits. Obvious examples might stand out to me and I've tried studying up on identifying them, but not experienced enough with them that I fear being fooled. I made my first coin purchase ever on ebay and after more experience its not a purchase i would repeat now. As far as auctions, I have been wondering whether the prices do get driven up and I very much take your point @dougsmit. And wasn't certain which auctions are reliable and trustworthy as well.

 

Oh sorry not to mention - I only buy NGC & PCGS graded & slabbed coins from Ebay. Too many fake raw coins on there being sold!!

 

Speaking of auctions, two prominent and reputable Israeli dealers have recently joined forces to create Holy Land Auctions. Their very first auction ends Sunday night. Some very interesting coins being offered.

 

Not true, but the offerings at any one sale depends totally upon the consignments.

Chris

 

One of the things you learn about collecting ancients after a while is more about you than it is about the coins. Fakes exist. If you believe there are no fakes in slabs, you are new. If you believe most coins on eBay are fake, you are new. What is your tolerance for risk? I've lost more on buying bad stocks at a bad time than I ever did on fake coins. After a while you determine just how confident you are about spotting fakes and you act accordingly. If I were brand new in the hobby, I would not be buying $1000 coins from anyone. After a couple years of study, I'd buy only from really trusted sellers. I'd learn a little about $13 coins of Philip I before bidding $13,000 of a similar grade coin of Pacatian.

I told my CT confessor that I am currently awaiting delivery on a coin I bought off eBay with a poor photo from an unknown seller. Was I the fool? You may never know. I may never be 100% sure. Sometimes you decide to take a chance. Sometimes you get burned. Sometimes you decide it is not worth ruining your hobby enjoyment over and you figure that buying a few fakes is part of the cost of doing business just like buying those thousands of dollars worth of books was. You don't have thousands of dollars worth of books??? Yet???

 

You already know about CNG, but having bought from them and a number of other auction houses in the last couple of years, I'd just like to throw in a ringing endorsement for them. Regular auctions, well-stocked with amongst the best examples of any type you could be looking for, very representative photos, comparatively decent fees, and service that you can't fault. There are other auction houses that I'm sure you'll inevitably end up buying from, but for my money few come close to CNG.

 

I never really touched auctions until lately and I've been collecting for 3 1/2 years now. I have a good idea what I'm doing which is why I started doing auctions.

Most of the time I get coins from VCoins with a lifetime authenticity guarantee, probably as long as the dealer is alive. lol.

As others have said, you'll pay less or a lot more with auctions. You can't really wheel and deal with the seller much.

On the other hand, with retail such as VCoins and buy it now sales on Ebay you might be able to haggle a bit which is what I normally do.

 

I like any auction that has coins I want . Factors which sometimes steer me away are high fees (21+%) and/or poor customer service.

In terms of auction houses I buy from most often are:

CNG (large selection, accurate attributions, frequent auctions, buyer's fees are moderate)
Roma Numismatics
Pecunem (superduper fast shipping, low fees, large selection of good but not super high-end coins)

Heritage is also good but it seems like the overall quality of their coins has diminished lately... plus they're starting to slab almost everything. I prefer unslabbed coins but as long as the price isn't bumped up by slabbing, I don't care. It's easy enough to remove the coin. Frankly, slabbing doesn't seem to be causing a noticeable bump in price.

Recently I've purchased a couple of coins from Jencek's auctions. He has very low fees. The selection isn't as vast as major auction houses but sometimes there are interesting coins at good prices. Another worth mentioning is Davissons. I just bought my first auction coin from them. No buyer's fee... incredible! Their auctions are small but you never know what might be lurking.

 

I don't buy coins through auction houses but I have always wondered about the "buyers fees". What's with that?

 

Once upon a time auctions were held and buyers were charged what they bid plus postage. Consignors then were paid a percentage of that realization with the rest going to the auction house to cover expenses like employees, catalog production, buildings and grounds, security etc. etc. etc. If you stop and think about it, there should be quite a bit of overhead in running a huge sale but consignors did not like seeing their coins selling for twice what they got after the sale and hesitated to consign coins. To make things look better, the idea arose to charge buyers an additional fee so part of the burden was shifted off the sellers who then could get a higher percentage of what their coin brought (so called 'hammer price'). Of course this offended buyers who bid $100 but had to pay $150 to get the coin after all the add-ons were added on. Some auctions still are run the old way and a few smaller ones even sell only coins that belong to the auctioneer. These have no consignors to offend and no reason to play the game with the buyer's fee except as a way of raising the bid of people who can't do the math and bid more for the same coin in a 0% sale than they would in a 20% sale. Costs of doing business continue to rise and someone has to pay for the services like credit cards, glossy catalogs, three different online bid services, lawyers, a fancy hotel room with finger sandwiches at the sale and, I'm sure, a dozen other things none of us can even imagine. In case you wonder who will have to pay in the end whichever way it is figured, look in the mirror. After all you are the one who wants to buy or sell the coins. The auction houses are, hopefully, profit making organizations.

 

Auction fees suck, but it helps a little to know how and why they happen.

You see, the major firms all compete for the good consignments. They may offer a standard 15% consignment fee, but they are almost always willing to give special terms to get in a big collection. So you get these little bidding wars. CNG offers 10%, but NAC offers only 5%, and Gemini comes in with -2% (which works out like giving the seller a cut of the buyer's premium, too). As this practice became me and more standard, the fees slowly crept up.

As an aside, it also caused some consignors to hang on until well past the stated consignment in hopes of getting better terms. That means that folks like me have less and less time to properly catalog better and better coins, which also sucks.

 

The higher prices in some auctions are an interesting phenomenon. I have seen things that should go for $x go for $2x or even $5x. Nowhere is this worse than book auctions, where things even sell for higher prices than the SAME DEALER has for the SAME BOOKS IN STOCK. Of course, the prices could also be attributed to the fact that you just don't recognize the auction coins as being better. Surfaces especially are a price killer. I see a lot of coins posted here with porosity or minor corrosion that make them less of a deal than they would initially seem.

I would also like to point out that all of you who refuse to participate in auctions because of the high prices have your heads in the sand. Who do you think half of the bidders are in those sales? The dealers that you later end up buying from, at an even higher markup.

 

That's not always true. I've seen a lot of auctions where the starting price or estimate is already high and after people start bidding, the price is going to get jacked way up if people really want the coin. Or, they just won't bid on it because it's already too high.

I done a couple of auctions recently and did score a few at a low price. On the other hand, getting retail coins and if the coins have been setting there for awhile and the price hasn't changed, the price may end up low. Or you can haggle with the dealer to get a better price. Both types seem to be good but I did not do auctions for awhile because I felt uncomfortable about doing them. Not so much right now because I have an idea about what I'm doing.