So there was this fake Trade Dollar...

Yeah right!! Their idea of customer service

 

Log in or Sign up to hide this ad.

That's one thing that galls , people who work on phones talking to the public in the US , that can barely speak English . Now there's nothing wrong for new Americans to speak broken English as they are just learning a new language , but they shouldn't have a job where it's an important job prerequisite . Just my 2 cents .

 

Now back to the thread . Dougmeister , what were your plans with this "fake Trade " if eBay let you keep it ? Would you mark it Copy or just leave it be . Like others have said just don't buy Trade dollars off of eBay from sellers you don't know . If we all did that eventually the demand would lesson and ebay might do something about it . All we can do is keep bugging eBay to change their policy , until they do nothing will change .

 

AMEN!!!!!!!!

 

Best thing to develop a non feebay coin auction site that's self policing gc good but there could be something better

 

Something like a listing / auction forum like feebay strictly for coins etc with mods like ct that would remove counterfeits fakes etc. I'd be game

 

You could always go the route of returning an empty box, ebay will refund (at least they have said they would) It isn't really ethical, but on the other hand neither is knowingly selling counterfeits.

 

I haven't logged in all week due to working late. Hats off to you, Dougmeister!!

 

I... I think I like this.

I've been beating the drum about fakes on eBay, and I've said several times that eBay did not require me to return counterfeits to their sellers. Here's the official policy:

eBay Money Back Guarantee

In my experience(s), the part about "ensure the proper disposal of the item" was quite minimal. I said that the coins were counterfeit, giving details about the signs that marked them as not genuine, and eBay took me at my word. They didn't require me to return the items -- not to the seller, not to eBay itself.

This works out well for honest and knowledgeable buyers, but what if a buyer is wrong, or dishonest? A seller could lose a perfectly legitimate coin, with no recourse.

I don't know how eBay handles a "he said/she said" situation. In my cases, I'm not sure the sellers involved put up much of a fight; in once case, I know that a number of buyers filed complaints about him at the same time.

The solution that eBay has offered @Dougmeister seems like a step forward. I'm curious as to how they define "expert"; Doug, please share details about that as you can.

If eBay starts requiring paperwork and "expert opinions" to deal with counterfeits, it raises the barrier for us to do as Doug did -- buying a coin with the expectation that we'll get our money back and take a counterfeit off the market -- but I'm not sure that's a problem. I'm willing to tolerate a higher bar for these claims, if it prevents abuse of legitimate sellers.

Thanks, Doug, for keeping us posted!

 

Let's hope that eBay sets the bar higher than some schmoe simply claiming a fake. As-is, a policy allowing for buyers to keep so called fakes is ripe for abuse, and eBay's stating that the buyer may not resell it is laughably ridiculous.

There is an old saying about it being better a guilty man go free than an innocent man be punished, and I think it fits well here. Some fair and reasonable standard must be set because as-is, this thread is looking more and more like a "how to", not to remove fakes from the bay, but how to put a free coin in one's collection for those so inclined.

 

Doug asked me to write them a letter in my capacity as curator of The Black Cabinet where I outlined the problems with the coin and signed it in Good Faith under penalty of Perjury and they seem to have accepted it. We'll know for sure on Tuesday.

To "destroy and discard it" he's decided to donate the coin to The Black Cabinet, where it will be photographed, cataloged, put up on The Black Cabinet's database as an example to others, and ultimately meet Justice (the name I've given my "COPY" stamp).



If all of this works out and @Dougmeister gets his money back, I have no problem helping out others in the same capacity. I might even set up a "Help! I bought a counterfeit off of eBay" page with instructions to make it easier and eliminate any such barriers, while at the same time affording some accountability.

If counterfeiters have the rug pulled out from under them enough times, they'll be less likely to do business on eBay at all. I believe that's a win for the hobby.

And aye, there already have been abuses of this process. I remember a recent news story about a hand-crafted violin being destroyed as a "counterfeit." This is not something to be taken lightly by any means.

 

Almost worth the send to pcgs anacs ngc for their written opinion as a document of it being fake the $20 in fees cheaper then a lawyer

 

I agree with Books on this one . It seems to me that some unscrupulous people will use this to keep a real coin claiming it a counterfeit , or to keep a contempory counterfeit . Steve , I'm sure you're doing this for noble intentions but there are a lot of fakes out there that I bet you couldn't tell one way or another . I think I can tell most fakes out there , but not all . So what makes an expert . Tom Delory once couldn't say if a Trade dollar of mine was real or fake and he's one of the foremost experts on fake Trade dollars . He said further testing would have to be done in order to tell . I think the top tpgs should be the ones who decide not someone who may or not be qualified to tell . Just my 2 cents .

 

Very few people are Tom DeLorey, outside of Tom DeLorey.

I'm not saying I'm infallible (as that would be foolish, no one is infallible -- I have counterfeits slabbed by PCGS as genuine), but I use most of the same methods the top TPGs use to detect counterfeits, right down to things like microscopic features, specific gravity, electromagnetic properties, and XRF, if need be. It's not rocket science. If those tests can't tell them apart, then we have a much bigger problem on our hands.

The only difference, however, is that the top TPGs will do it as a proprietary, commercial exercise, charging a premium to check things within the time limits and never release their findings to the public for the betterment of the hobby. That doesn't sit well with me.

 

Fortunately, the coin that I bought (and returned) was such an obvious fake (weight way off) that a photo of the coin on a scale would be sufficient proof. However I have seen a few very good fake Trades, including one that graded at a major TPG. I have a couple of high quality fakes that I bought off eBay years ago that I would be happy to donate to the Black Cabinet.

 

@ksparrow - Every bit of help is sincerely appreciated and information about contributing can be found here: http://fakes.numismetrica.com/submissions/

 

Perhaps you could post clear and detailed photos of the PCGS slabbed counterfeits (not tampered with or fake slabs) you own. Sharing this type of material, as opposed to the very poor fakes often seen, could only help the membership of this board, and I for one look forward to seeing them.

Also, and in response to your earlier post about having the rug pulled from under counterfeiters, it sounds fine and dandy, but the immense return from selling a few dollar fake as genuine will outweigh any potential loss from having listings pulled or their fakes destroyed. It all comes down to risk vs. reward.







.

 

So, you are saying that you are better at identifying counterfeits than PCGS or NGC? A wee bit of hubris in action here.

 

@Morgandude11 - That would be putting words in my mouth.

 

@BooksB4Coins - I, at present, do not have access to my collection, but here's an oldie but goodie of an example. The 1896,1900,1901,1902 Micro O Morgan series. Major TPGs were slabbing these for years before they realized that they were fake.



I'm not saying it's commonplace (as far as anyone knows) but it does happen. The one above is presently up on eBay.