GTG.....1916 Walking Liberty

I'm anxiously awaiting the OP's pictures when he gets it in hand. I don't think it will look as bad as the sellers pics, but I could be wrong I often am.

 

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While the OP's coin has darkish toning, it is no where near the level of the example you posted. The reverse of the OP's coin looks lustrous and wonderful. Not to mention the poor quality of the seller's pics...

I get what you're saying, but you're sort of comparing apples and oranges with the OP's coin and the one you posted...

 

Both have terminal state toning. The degree of toning on the second coin is more advanced than the first but that is not what is important. What is important is where PCGS draws the line. I am happy for Chief that the coin is a problem free holder because I am not confident that it would end up in one if submitted again. To insinuate that the OPs coin is nowhere near the danger zone of being considered a problem coin is ridiculous. Btw, the reverse of the OPs coin is immaterial to the discussion. All that matters is if the obverse toning is considered environmental damage. Regarding the quality of the pics, I took those of the second coin off E-Bay as well. Neither set of photos is high quality IMO.

 

Ok, fair enough. I still think you're comparing apples to oranges.

How about this lovely "rainbow toned gem" you currently have for sale on eBay?



It looks terminally toned to me, yet you described it as:

"A stunning example plucked from a 1958 double mint set which are famous for imparting this type of dramatic toning. The obverse displays patchy yellow, chestnut, pale blue, and army green while the reverse exhibits a much more colorful patina. Bright shades of pink, yellow, cherry, lime & emerald greed are found throughout. Bright luster and good surfaces provide a powerful presentation for this uniquely toned gem."

I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

 

Both are great examples, thank you for posting them. When it gets here I'll try and get some better shots of the toning. I think the sellers photos are close though. Hopefully I'll have it by Saturday.

Thanks again to all for sharing your opinions.

 

I don't find theops coin to have terminal stage toning. Nicely toned is all the second is a bit black and looks nothing like the first

 

Other than to bash my coin, I don't really understand your point. You will notice that it is raw, I have not sent it in for grading, and the price is very cheap. In fact, the description might be worth more than the coin. I don't know whether this coin would grade or not but I'm not spending $25 to find out. Btw, where do you see terminal state toning on that Washington? The patchy areas on the obverse are dark brown, not black.

 

That thing looks terminally ill.

 

Paul, you are self-proclaimed "very tough on coins with terminal state toning" -- it seems that's the case unless the said coin is one you are trying to sell. Whether the blotchy spots on the obverse of that Washington Quarter are "brown" or "black" -- it doesn't really matter -- the coin is ugly as sin. That coin is neither a "gem" nor "stunning" nor "rainbow toned". Yet you have found a way to describe it as such.

So my point here is that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Some people like and are fine collecting non-corroded darker toned original coins.

You also matter-of-factly stated of the OP's coin that the "obverse is 75% covered in terminal state toning (black)"...those are your words. And, I simply disagree. Given the poor photography, those tones could just as well be dark blues or browns -- and even if they are black toning, they are certainly laid out on the coin's surface in an overall non-obtrusive manner. The reverse of the OP's coin looks truly stunning and lustrous, nothing like the gunky, nasty, circulated, black example you posted as an example of environmental damage.

So my point here is that the OP's coin looks dark, yes. But I don't see anything that suggests environmental damage. Dark toning does not equate with environmental damage.

 

As a follow-up, let me post a coin here that for most photographers on eBay would come across as having a black reverse. But, the coin is anything but "black" in hand. This coin is also relevant to the discussion of this WLH because it does appear to have some rub on the high areas of her cheeks. But, I happen to know the history of this coin. It was stored in a Wayte Raymond album for years, and what appear as non-toned high areas on the obverse are simply areas where air was not able to circulate due to the thin plastic protector sheet touching the coins surface.

I don't have very many darkly toned coins, but I do have a couple. I buy and collect what I like, not what others tell me to do. Many could call the reverse of this coin "terminally toned" -- or pretty nearly there. But, I love the coin all the same.

 

Poker Man speak with forked tongue.

 

I am tough on deeply toned coins. That does not preclude me from using flowery language to sell one for a cheap price on E-Bay. The coin is gem grade, the reverse is rainbow toned, and a quick dip would solve all its problems. The fact that I have a coin listed on E-Bay does not change the fact that what I'm saying is true.

Both the OPs coin and your coin appear to have terminal state toning. If the toning is not black, it is still deep enough that the luster is muted. If you were to dip either of those coins, what would the result be? My guess is that nobody would like the results.

Furthermore, I never criticized the coin, or the preferences of the OP. And you can talk all the junk you want but here is the truth. My evaluation of the coins grade was spot on. I said "I was worried" that it was in a Genuine holder but I graded it AU58 because of the apparent rub on the leg. I also stated that the coin would grade MS61 or MS62 tops if it was uncirculated. The coin is graded MS62.

The only person being highly critical in this thread is you!

 

That quarter is not the only coin you have sold with terminal state toning. One was a recent high dollar pedigreed Morgan dollar that had just as dark toning as the coin I posted. You also have a high grade SLQ for sale that (IMO) has "terminal" state toning around the rims. Don't pass it off as it if were simply a one-time flowery way of describing a raw cheap coin...

Your argument about dipping could be made for any toned coin, not just darkly toned coins. You can never predict what a dipped toned coin will look like before you do the dipping...there's always a bit of a gamble.

As for your guess of the grade of the coin, I concede you were correct about it being an MS62 tops -- but I simply don't think that the O'Ps coin was even on the table as a potential "environmental damage" coin. I can interpret the images well enough to know that there is way too much luster beneath that toning for it to be "damaged" -- it's not anything like the dog you posted to justify your "worry"...

Anyway (and this will be my last post in this thread), my gripe is with your use of the term "terminal" state toning (as if it were some sort of disease) when a coin is posted here with dark toning -- but in your "honest" eBay sales it's passed off with flowery and praising language. That's an interesting juxtaposition. That's all...

 

That is a great coin Chief! Better grade, 1st year of issue and a lower mintage for one of my favorite designs! It's just a win-win, can't wait to see these in gold for the 100th Anniversary too (hopefully). Way-to-go!!!

 

Well, in all fairness, I've seen some of his toned coins described as having periwinkle, and everybody knows that's worth a lot more than pink.

 

Did not deliver Saturday, maybe Monday....

 

Yes a big Wow- 63

 

Sellers disclaimer:
"Eagerly anticipated items will be shipped via Pony Express, when mailing items cross-country you might have to put the horse down upon arrival".
:-(

 

First, I don't agree that the Washington quarter has terminal state toning. The obverse has patches of ugly brown toning and the reverse has attractive rainbow toning. But for you to include two coins of mine that are both graded MS67 by NGC in the "terminal toning" category in a desperate attempt to discredit me is not only ridiculous, it is sad. Very very sad. I had no idea you were so petulant.




I assume these are the two coins you are talking about. Yet you accuse me of comparing apples to oranges.

I am not talking about a bit of a gamble which does exist even on moderately toned coins. I am referring to coins that have deep terminal state toning that affects luster. Coins like the Walker in the OP and the Netherlands coin you posted. Dipping coins like that pushes the level of risk far beyond "a bit of a gamble."

The only luster I see beneath the surfaces is on the reverse. Your coin photo whispering abilities aside, there is no way that you can see luster on the obverse of that coin. Furthermore, the dog I posted was the first example that I found in about 20 seconds. I used it because it was the same year and series. My evaluation of the coin in the OP was based on years of experience with toned coins, as well as an understanding of how PCGS evaluates deeply toned coins. In my experience, PCGS does not like "terminal state" toning and they have and will grade coins with extensive amounts of such toning as Genuine with environmental damage. Furthermore, I was not the only one in this thread who had such "worry". Frank (Treashunt) had the exact same first impression. And if Doug had bothered to chime in, I bet he would have had a similar concern.

I didn't invent the term "terminal state toning." That is what charcoal/black toning is called in the numismatic community. It is not meant to sound like a disease, rather it simply means it is the last stage of the toning process. And of course, there are different levels of terminal state toning. The "dog" I posted as an example is more deeply toned than that in the OP, but both exhibit terminal state toning. One is an obvious problem coin, the other is borderline. Finding that line that the TPGs use to differentiate between a coin with acceptable original deep toning and environmental damage is not easy, and every coin with such toning should be scrutinized.

I made it very clear that I am tough on coins that exhibit terminal state toning. Never once did I criticize those who choose to collect such coins. But I think it is important for people to know that coins with terminal state toning carry an inherent risk because there are a significant number of collectors who share my feelings on the subject and would not be willing to purchase such a coin at full value. Your repeated attempts to cast me as a hypocrite by insisting that some of my E-Bay offerings are in the same category as the coin in the OP are rancorous.

You stated that your previous post that it will be the last in this thread. When you engage in the type of trolling posts that you have made in this thread, it doesn't give others the impression that you are taking the high road by bowing out.

 

For accuracy's sake, periwinkle = lavender, not pink.