You vs PCGS: Guess the Grade of 1887 Morgan

I kind of like the luster on it, though there are some contact marks. I payed $60 for it today, my first slabbed Morgan though I have around two 20 coin pages in my album of uncirculated silver dollars.

 

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Kind of hard for it to be "us versus PCGS". Since these refuse to follow ANA grading standards, by definition the PCGS grade of something is whatever they say it is. I could call it a CPGS, (Chris' Coin Grading Service), and call it a 63 and no one could disagree with me since I am the only judge of Chris' grade. Kind of curious how they set it up so they can never be second guessed, huh?

 

I know how much fun some here think bashing pcgs can be. After certifying over 30 million coins you are certainly going to have many examples of grading errors both under and overvalued. But the fact remains that in practice the U.S. rare coin market is not just controlled by pcgs and ngc but is defined by them. The ana standards are no longer what the market follows. Go to any us coin show and you will instantly see what I'm talking about. 99% of the coins valued over a few hundred dollars are in either ngc or pcgs holders.

Look at any major auction catalog almost all the coins are either pcgs or ngc. Look at the heratige online auctions same thing.

People love to be critical of pcgs and ngc but not only are they the single best event to ever impact the U.S. coin market but they are now the very defination. In reality it is way more valuable a skill to be able to grade on the pcgs and ngc standards then the ana, as @Lehigh96 has stated in the past.

 

It's easy to bash the "big guys". It happens every day, all day, in all industries. Sad, but true.

I agree whole heartedly with your post. I've underlined and bolded one of your statements, because I wanted to make a comment specific to it.

If it were not for NGC/PCGS, I would not be in this hobby. I'm not going to write all the reasons as to why, as there are many, but they leveled the playing field for the average collector. They've also made it much easier to conduct business via the internet. I for one am thankful for them.

 

Let me be clear. I loved ANACS. I love the idea of authentication services. I tell everyone who will listen that they should never buy a "key" that is not slabbed. I am completely onboard with all of this part.

I am not bashing the big guys for the sake of it. My issue with PCGS and NGC is the fact they are not grading to the standards. They do not grade according to ANA standards, they make up their own. Its been going on so long that most do not see this as an issue, in fact many now claim PCGS/NGC grading IS the market standard now. The problem with this approach is that this allows them, as a for profit company, to manipulate the coin market however they see fit. Have they slabbed most coins? Easy enough then, loosen standards to force everyone to resubmit in hopes of new, higher "grades". Get too loose over time? Ok, come up with a new "stricter" label and force everyone to resubmit again to get the "tougher" label.

All of this BS would not be allowed if they graded according to a set of standards in the hobby that they didn't control, like ANA standards. ANA standards are truly standards, since no one owns them and they cannot be manipulated. PCGS/NGC standards can and have been manipulated whenever it economically suits the TPG. Why should we accept that for our hobby? The have been paid BILLIONS from coin collectors. Why isn't that enough? Why do they need to manipulate the grades as well? I do not begrudge them their intelligence. As a business proposition I would love to be in their shoes, and have a clientele stupid enough to let me set my own standards.

 

Fair enough. I wasn't in the hobby when either of them were founded. My primary point was that I for one appreciate what NGC/PCGS brought to the hobby. Whether they are grading to the ANA standards can be debated, but I'm not the person to do that.

So if my info is correct, the ANA published their standards in 1981. Prior to that, there were some books on grading standards, but nothing was "written in stone". So who was the "supreme" judge of these standards? When a collector walked into a coin shop prior to '87, WHO decided the coins grade? The dealer? You, the collector? So who was right? Wasn't your judgement an interpretation of the ANA standards? Ditto for the dealer? I'm sure there were many instances in which the coins grade was debated. Let's face it, this still goes on today eventhough there are TPG's. As the saying goes, opinions are like arse holes, everyone has them and they all stink (included for levity).

How do you reconcile the problem you've stated: TPG's not grading to ANA standards? Seems to me, it's kind of like Tilting at Windmills. As I see it, you've really only got one choice: learn the ANA standards and buy only those coins that meet your interpretation of them, regardless of what the TPG grade states.

 

Yes sir. I freely admit the market was a scary place for a novice before. Lots of shady dealers, overgraded coins, etc. For novice collectors do I prefer 1978 over 2015? No, I don't. 1978 was a brutal period for those who didn't do their homework, but 2015 is no walk in the park either. Sure you can get slabbed coins. That will guarantee they are authentic and even though many are overgraded at least they will not be cleaned, damaged, etc. So that part is fair. I do not deny that.

What about all of these newbies being sold MS69 and MS70 modern coins though? Don't you feel they will be getting taken to the cleaners? I fear for that. Even though its not the TPG's selling them, they are facilitating it by slabbing modern coins.

My other fear is because of slabs most collectors never learn anymore how to authenticate and grade for themselves. They look at what the plastic says, and don't bother studying coins. What will happen when their plastic protection blanket itself gets counterfeited? I fear collectors will be far worst off.

Maybe its just wishful yearnings of someone who has been around the hobby for years and saw it play out. I just wish the TPGs would grade to ANA standards. If they did, I truly would be an advocate, at least for modern coins. As it is, I got fed up with it and moved to ancient coins.

 

I get it. It's now safer to dip your toes in this hobby than it ever was (or so I'm guessing), but that doesn't mean there aren't sharks in the water!

I did a quick check of ANA Grading standards and when they were published. Here's an article from 1990 talking about the release of Jim Halperin's book. I found it interesting that it mentions the ANA grading standards and that the ANA readily adimitted they did not clearly define Mint State coins in the grading guide.
http://www.coingrading.com/intro1.html

So even at the release of this standard, things were grey.

1st edition: 1981
2nd edition: 1984
3rd edition: 1987
4th edition: 1991
5th edition: 1996
6th edition: 2005
7th edition: 2013

I'm guessing that even after the ANA released their guide, there was still considerable debate as to coin grades. I'm sure there are other factors involved, but the lack of clarity in coin grading had to lead to the success of the TPG's. If everyone agreed on the grade, why then would you need them? Authentification alone couldn't be sole reason for their success.

That aside, I do understand your points about MS69 vs. MS70. I don't like what's going on in the modern market as it pertains to marketing labels vs. coins, but I can just choose when and where to participate. I think the coin market is a true free market. Ultimately, supply and demand will win the day. Some will be burned badly and others will profit.

While I'm new to this hobby, I've taken the time to educate myself via internet, books, coin shows and any other way I can. By doing this, I think I've lessened my exposure to the down side of the hobby, but not without some monetary lessons. I still have much to learn and enjoy doing it. IMO, the TPG's have allowed me to buy coins with some level of security while gaining this education. I don't just buy the label, but use it as my starting point. I'm sure many will chose to do it differently. While it would be nice to try and help those who jump in with no experience, there's another saying that is appropriate: you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink. I could expand on that thought, but it's an appropriate idiom.

I think it's human nature to remember the good old days as being better than today's. But I'll bet you can think back and remember seeing new collectors blindly following the direction of unscrupulous dealers and getting burned in the process. At least today, the barriers to enter the market are a much easier hurdle.

 

Is is not just a simple claim but really a fact sir. You can have the opinion that you don't agree with them having their own grading scales but you can't insinuate they are not the standard. They just flat out define the U.S. market, period.

So everyone in the us coin market buying higher end coins are stupid, but your right?

Honestly kind of offensive.

As has been said countless times by everyone on this forum no one should be spending anything over trivial amounts of money without some idea of what they are doing or they will lose money. I personally think you are statistically very likely to lose serious money if you buy coins and don't know the market. But anyone who takes even just a minute to google the topic will find articles like the two below just on the first page. So even with just a little effort they could find out how money losing the vast bulk of the modern graded coins are. Yes there are a handful that have so far retained their value but I see them as the exception that proves the rule. Not the rule itsself.


http://www.coinweek.com/modern-coins/the-collapse-of-the-2001-s-sacagawea-proof/

http://www.coinweek.com/featured-news/are-ms-70-coins-value-traps/

I would not purchase even a single coin today were it not for tpg's. I remember being a kid and going to shows. I always wanted cool type material but could never afford the coins I wanted, the serious ones. Now I can. But I would never sink the money I have into coins without the protection tpg's offer.with raw coins it made me feel like it was always the dealer saying the coin was bad when you sold and great when you bought even when it was the exact same coin.

Even if the coin is over graded you can just toss the thing on eBay and get most if not all of the money that the coin trades for at that grade.

I'm always going to have less knowledge and experience then the dealer. Why would I want to play high stakes poker with wsop experts? I'm going to lose every time.

I can still lose money buying quality nonmodern coins but grading simply limits my exposure significantly, to the point that I can feel comfortable buying nice coins.