1864-L Indian Cent Opinions

Greetings!

Was looking for a few opinions on this 1864-L. Wanted to get verification on the surfaces being fully original, estimated grade and RD vs. RB color of the coin.

The color is pretty much spot-on to the coin in hand, somehow I managed to get that captured well with a very amateur setup.

To me the luster just feels "off", but it could be because this is the 1st time I've seen in-hand such a high grade early IHC. The luster cartwheels, but unlike most later dates, it only cartwheels if the coin is rotated at a slight angle; on other red IHCs it cartwheels simply with left-right motion on a single axis.

1st post, so thanks in advance to the welcome and advice!

 

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First Welcome to Cointalk
Color look great ! You maybe right about first time seen in high grade.I don't think the color been altered. Hopefully Larry will see this thread and dispensing his knowledge.

 

Welcome to CT. That cent is beautiful. I can only wait for the experts to chime in.

 

The color looks fine , but it should cartwheel like any other coin . The fact that it doesn't means it could have been cleaned . Now I say could have . Take a good loupe 10X is good and have a good light , slowly rotate the coin looking for small hairlines that you might miss at most angles . Sometimes you will see them at one angle and not others . Carefully look at the areas where the luster doesn't cartwheel . Though it just could be a slightly impaired luster and the coin is fine .

 

No expert on these. I see some earlier cents and large cents that really don't have a ton of luster almost like the planchet is microscopicly porous. This could be what this is like as I see no off color or any outward signs of cleaning

 

welcome to CT.

 

Welcome to the fun.
I'm not sure what to think about the coin. It's really nice but the images don't tell much about the luster. The surfaces look too bright. Maybe just the images. The reverse may bring it down to AU-58. I first thought it was cleaned but I don't know.

 

Pretty much agree with this. I am suspecting enough of a dip that luster is slightly impaired, cause of both the reduced luster and the bright color. In my experience, taking a copper coin from full dark brown to red, only one time, usually slightly impairs the luster like you are describing.

 

That coin is in a well-preserved state, perhaps an MS-63/64 RD. There is enough patination of red around the Date and the Rim to believe that this coin has not been dipped recently, or at all. Check out this link to a similar looking coin from a Heritage Auction:

http://coins.ha.com/itm/indian-cents/small-cents/1864-1c-l-on-ribbon-ms64-red-ngc-cac/a/1215-3163.s

 

The coin looks good to me, at least from your photos. I would take a loupe and examine her cheek and the area just in front of her nose - it might be a trick of the images, but it looks like there might be something going on there.

 

Welcome to CT. Are you certain that it is genuine, the strike seems fishy to me.

 

The pictures don't show much luster and it looks suspiciously bright, almost as if the coin has been stripped. I wonder if it has been treated with cyanide.

 

The color of the coin that is the subject of the instant thread looks nothing like the coin in the Heritage images. The coloring looks very different on my screen.

 

Looks high AU to me. Not sure about the color though...

 

No two older bronze coins are identical in appearance, but they can be similar looking in surface texture and general coloration. IMO, the referenced Heritage coin--the closest in grade and appearance that I could find in their database with a quick search--is a fair measure of comparison for him to make his own determination as to the questions that he asked: "fully original"; "estimated grade"; "RD vs. RB"; and "luster".

 

When I compare the two, it makes the OP coin look like it lost all it's skin.

 

+1

That's also what made me think the coin could have been treated with a cyanide salt. Cyanide will strip the coin and when first done, the pieces are artificially bright and sometimes taken on a pinkish hue. With age, the pinkish hue will fade and a more convincing patina will be acquired.

 

I didn't say positively that it was not dipped, I said "There is enough patination of red around the Date and the Rim to believe that this coin has not been dipped recently, or at all." Compared with most of the other 1864s out there--and considering the "freshness of its color", there is a high probability that it was dipped (maybe in the old days using KCN or NaCN, or more recently using an acidic-based cleaner).

I used the HA reference because it was the same Date w/L and the same grade, and because it was easy for me to find. If you want a more representative appearing coin--but not the same date--you can look at PCGScoinfacts Image for the 1906 MS64 RD example.

In the end, we can only make comments based upon our knowledgebase, experience, and impression from the photos; it is up to centhoarder to come to his own conclusion based upon our inputs.

 

I don't disagree that copper is a reactive metal and that the appearance of coins can differ among specimens. My comment was based on the fact that the coin looks stripped. It is devoid of luster and is unusually bright. It looks like a recent job to me, but again, I could always be wrong.

Edited: Sorry. I managed to click on the proof coin by mistake. Here are the two MS64 RD examples, and both appear to have an original skin unlike the coin above IMO.

 

What's going on between 1 and 3 on the reverse inside the wreath? Is that just a reflection?