Ceaning or Die polish

Looks like cleaning / wiping to me... Doug's explanation seems to fit the bill.

 

Yes, the OP's coins was the only thing I was commenting on. I wasn't even going to attempt to wade into the second half of this thread. It gets too exhausting.

 

And I gladly would if I was. But as Roger points out, I am not. Cleaning a die and or retouching a die is not the same thing as polishing a die. Cleaning a die or retouching can create scratches on the die, and scratches on the die result in raised lines on the coins they strike. And that is how raised lines can appear on the devices of a coin. Tool marks can also create raised lines on a die, but tool marks are not the result of polishing the die either.

And that is the entire point. There are several completely different processes that can create lines on a die, which in turn create raised lines on a coin. But they are all different processes and not die polishing. Dies are polished by machine, not by hand. And the flat disk that does the polishing is incapable of even touching the devices on a coin, so there can never be die polish lines on the devices of a coin. It's physically impossible. And the polishing method is also why die polish lines cannot criss cross.

Yes, there can easily be raised lines on a coin that do criss cross. My point is that if there are, then those that do criss cross were not created by the die being polished, but instead created by other processes done to the die in addition to the die being polished. Die polish lines in and of themselves cannot criss cross..

And as you point out, just as I have done many. many times, you can and often do find die polish lines, die scratches, tool marks, hairlines on the coin, scratches on the coin, - and all on the same coin.

The mistake being made is one of terminology for most people call all of these lines die polish lines - when they are not all die polish lines at all. But instead lines with several different causes. It is also extremely common for the TPGs to do pretty much the same thing and cleanly grade coins that for obvious reasons have lines on them that were not caused by die polishing. And they get away with doing this because they know the majority of people will accept it because that is what the people want. They want their coins cleanly graded. And they also know that most people do not know the truth about the many different things that cause the lines on coins. Those two things combined allow them to get away with doing what they do.

 

No Brandon, nothing slipped my mind. I have posted on this subject many times and my posts are consistent. Yeah, I only mentioned those 2 things in my original post in this thread, but that in no way means there isn't anything else that I didn't mention. What's more, you know that because you and I have discussed it before, specifically the issue about why die polishing lines cannot criss cross. You even posted illustrations of 2 different types of polishing wheels.

As for Roger's comments, he pretty much said what I said - that people use the single term die polishing to cover several things. But just because people the term incorrectly, that doesn't mean that other forms of die are repair are die polishing, and Roger knows that, as do I. He's just saying he doesn't have a problem with it because he himself understands what it actually is. He also knows he's never get them to stop using the term incorrectly, as do I.

But there is something else, just for the sake of argument let's say that the term die polishing is used for different forms of die repair. Die repair is only done with the die out of the press. So, what happens when grease or dirt or tiny metal shavings/chips or a combination of all of them get stuck in the recesses of a die while it is on the press and in use - and the the mint worker walks over takes a dirty rag out of his back pocket and wipes the dirt and debris off the die, and scratches the die in the process.

Now that die is going to have incuse lines on it from those scratches. And those scratches may very well criss cross and die polish lines that are on that die. Are you going to try and call those scratches die polish lines too ? I sure wouldn't.

Now about the last comment, I happily defer to Roger as to what the mint might have said -

But what about business strike dies ? They don't have mirror like surfaces, but each and every business strike die ever made has most definitely been polished. You know that, I know that, Roger knows that too. But they are not polished until they have mirror like surfaces. Die polishing is a multi-stage process that uses several different grits of diamond dust paste. Business strike dies go through the same initial process process as Proof dies do, but they do not go through the final stages where the finer grits are used, the ones that create the mirror finish. The die polishing is stopped on business strikes before they ever get to that point.

One last thing, visible die polish lines, (and I mean actual die polish lines not lines caused by other things), on a coin are a flaw, a mistake. You're never supposed to be able to see die polish lines on a coin. This is evidenced by the huge numbers of business strikes and Proofs alike, that show no die polish lines at all. The only time we ever see die polish lines on a coin is when a mint worker screwed up and did not polish the die well enough, or did not complete all the steps and use the finer grits of diamond dust paste like he was supposed to do. For if he had, you wouldn't be able to see any die polish lines.

That said, the TPGs pretty much ignore die polish lines as having any negative impact on the grade of a coin because they are part of the minting process. Well I agree they are part of the minting process, but quality of strike is also part of the minting process. And if a coin is weakly struck then that can and does have a negative impact on the grade of a coin. The published TPG grading standards say it has a negative impact, and the actual grading the TPGs does show that it has a negative impact. Or least some of it does.

A weak strike is a flaw, visible die polish lines are a flaw - of that there is no question. But yet the TPGs ignore die polish lines as being a flaw.

Yeah, that makes perfect sense to me

 

Well at least I'm learning something. the OP had no idea what kind of minefield he was waking into. As just a humble observer, its seems that Doug and Brandon are in agreement that there is a variety of processes that create raised lines on coins, some of which are polish. To me, you guys actually agree even though you are trying really hard to appear otherwise. So am I failing to see the differences in your stances, or is this simply about terminology and how loosely its used?

There I feel better already.