How to tell if an old coin has been cleaned?

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by WalkingLiberty1212, Nov 28, 2014.

  1. Morgandude11

    Morgandude11 As long as it's Silver, I'm listening

    Figure that older coins that are bright and shiny have been at the very least dipped. Most "blazer monster white" Morgan dollars have been dipped at least once. A Silver coin left in a mint bag, or non-air conditioned storage for 120-150 years will be toned to some degree.

    As regards being cleaned, look for hairlines in the fields that show mechanical action of polishing. Also, look for that dead, lifeless look, as cleaning takes away metal, and that removes any kind of lustrous appearance--the coin has a defunct look to it.
     
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  3. physics-fan3.14

    physics-fan3.14 You got any more of them.... prooflikes?

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  4. Mainebill

    Mainebill Bethany Danielle

    image.jpg image.jpg Here's an example of a nice original coin
     
  5. Mainebill

    Mainebill Bethany Danielle

    image.jpg image.jpg And here's an example of an improperly cleaned one if you look close there's fine scratches all over it and the color even though retoned is a bit off
     
  6. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Let's look at a couple more. What do you folks think of these ? And make sure you right click on the images and select Open In New Tab, that will allow you to see nice big pictures. And if you use Chrome, you can click on that pic in the new tab and even see bigger ones.

    barber 1 obv a.jpg barber 1 rev a.jpg



    barber 2 obv a.jpg barber 2 rev a.jpg
     
  7. Mainebill

    Mainebill Bethany Danielle

    The washed out color on the 97-o is a giveaway of being way overdipped the 13 retoning but has been cleaned as well
     
  8. Morgandude11

    Morgandude11 As long as it's Silver, I'm listening

    Doug, they both would have been absolutely beautiful coins if they had not been cleaned or dipped overly. I don't mind the way that Barbers tone to the darker shades, and these two look obviously at the least dipped. I agree with Maine that the 13 looks cleaned as well as dipped. Shame, as they would have been beautiful if left original.
     
  9. Mainebill

    Mainebill Bethany Danielle

    image.jpg image.jpg image.jpg Here's another thing to watch out for. An original coin with a problem spot. See the unnatural gloss above the wreath on the reverse of the dime and look right below the last A of America on the trade otherwise their nice original coins but...
     
  10. CopperCastle

    CopperCastle Penny for your Thoughts

    A helpful tip that I've found useful is to look in places that would be difficult to clean inside of, such as the top-inside of the letters "A", "D","E", "O" & "R". As well as the inside curves of the numbers 3,4,6,8 (a really good number), and 9. Does the color vary from the inside of these characters to the outside? (Not the raised portions, color variables there are wear from normal circulation. Look at the field (flat) part). If colors here are not consistent throughout ..this is indicative of cleaning as can he seen in the cleaned coins illustrated above, as well as the majority of many problem specimens.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2014
  11. 712

    712 Constatutionalist, U.S.N. Viet Nam vet 66'

    I have a 3c silver 1862, 2/1 that would go 65 or 66 except for some small hairline scratches in the field on the obverse, like a slight rub, forced a details grade from PCGS. FYI
     
  12. Thanks for all the advice everyone! I been looking at pictures of TPGs online of Improperly cleaned coins and comparing them to similar grades that are clean/problem free.

    The one thing that I wish I could know is what type of cleaning was done to the coin to make it improperly cleaned. Do the TPGs list that anywhere? Would be nice so I can kinda get an Idea for what type of Cleaning caused which issues. And of course pictures only go so far :/ to distinguish certain issues. I purchased a few walking liberty fifty cent pieces one which looked clean and I got for $7.50 (1943 S) and one 1943 which looks close to maybe an AU grade and paid $13.50 for that. Both prices include the shipping cost in the price. Below are the pictures and for the coin which I thought was possibly cleaned I left my possibly reasoning for why I thought so. If my insights are wrong any input would be appreciated. $_57.JPG
    ^Looking at the picture nothing stands out to me that it was cleaned. Will inspect further once in hand to see if I can notice anything that stand out.
    $_57-1.JPG
    ^Does this coin looked cleaned? I am not sure if I am looking at it correctly but to me my gut says yes it is. The darkness in-between the 1943 number and also around the In God We Trust. Plus it looks like the coin was darker( for lack of knowledge of what the term is called) and it was Cleaned and it looks like dirt and grim was missed around the all the letters which spell Liberty. I am not sure if this is a correct analysis and if not I would like to get feedback of what others think and what I need to look at differently.

    $_57-2.JPG

    Thanks again for the help everyone. Appreciate you taking time to help out a rookie.
     
  13. How can you tell the 13 has been re-toned? What should I be noticing?
    As for the 97-o what gives it away that it has been dipped?
     
  14. Mainebill

    Mainebill Bethany Danielle

    On a high grade coin there should be some mint luster left even if toned the first barber has a kind of flat look like the shine is dulled and the color just doesn't look right compared to an untouched one. The second has a flat look as well and the surface looks minutely pitted the color doesn't look natural. Compare them to this barber and see the difference granted this one is toned and has its original skin image.jpg image.jpg
     
  15. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    I believe both coins have been harshly cleaned. The first - if you look closely you can see fine lines that cross the body and skirt, more are visible in the fields. The second coin also has those fine lines visible in the fields.

    Fine, hairline scratches like these when found in patches or over the entire coin are a typical sign that a coin has been harshly cleaned. The hairline scratches can be caused by a cloth, a brush, a sponge, almost anything being used to wipe or rub across the coin in an effort to remove dirt & grime, fingerprints, toning, and anything else that may have gotten on the coin.

    Now a lot of people think that the metal in coins is hard and so something soft could not damage it, could not leave behind fine scratches and marks on the coin if used to try and clean the coin. But they are wrong in this thinking. It doesn't matter what it is, there is nothing that can be rubbed across the surface of a coin that will not leave behind traces of that having been done - nothing !

    Some people will claim that this cannot be true because they have done it and they can't see any fine lines or scratches on the coin. But the people saying that are the ones that are wrong because quite simply, they don't know what they are seeing when they see it.

    Yes coin metals are hard. But they are not so hard that they cannot be scratched. There is no cloth or material of any kind that is soft enough - none - to not scratch coins. And this effect can even be made worse by any particles of dust that may be on the cloth, or by dirt, grime, or any material on the coin itself. These fine particles will act as grit that will scratch the metal. But even if the coin and the cloth were absolutely clean, it would still scratch the metal.

    This sounds counterintuitive, it doesn't seem to be logical so it could not possibly be true. Nonetheless it is true. And to prove it to yourself all you have to do is take the softest clean cloth you can get your hands on, a clean coin, and then rub that coin repeatedly with the cloth. The coin will look different when you are done for you will have polished it. And that's what polishing is, replacing the original surface with a series of fine scratches that are finer than the original surface was, thus making the original surface look more uniform than it was before. Polishing is nothing more than a higher degree of rubbing and creating fine scratches. Rub something a little and the scratches are easily seen. Rub it a whole lot, and they are harder to see because they cover the surface in a more uniform manner.

    This issue of dark areas and light areas is a different effect and one that can be harder to judge. This is because two very different things can have the same result. 1 - circulated coins, in the course of normal circulation acquire dirt, grime, and finger oils which only serve to attract more dirt and cause it to stick to the coin in protected areas. But because the coin is in circulation that dirt etc is rubbed off the high points of the coin, and usually the fields of the coin as well, and left behind only in the protected areas, the fine recesses around the legends, dates, and crevices of the devices. And so a normal circulated coin, that has not been harshly cleaned, when viewed, has this effect of dark areas and light areas. 2 - a coin that is harshly cleaned, typically with a brush or a cloth, creates exactly the same effect of dark protected areas and light exposed areas. The only difference between the two will usually be the traces of fine lines, the hairline scratches, left behind by the harsh cleaning. And you will often have to look closely to see them.

    One more thing on this, it is not unusual for a coin in circulation to acquire some fine scratches and hairlines in the course of circulation. But, those hairlines will be very different in that they will be scattered about here and there and in just about any direction. Sometimes you will find them in small patches of 3 to 5 or you may find them singly scattered about. But a coin that has been harshly cleaned will typically have large patches, maybe 20, 30 or more, of these fine hairlines, and they will often all be running in the same direction. And sometimes they will even cover the entire coin.

    And it is important to note that a coin does not need to be completely covered with fine hairlines for that coin to be considered to have been harshly cleaned. It can be one small area in the fields or on the devices where somebody tried to remove a spot maybe, or a patch of dirt, or a patch of toning, anything. This area may be no bigger than your little fingernail. But this is still enough to cause the coin to be designated as having been harshly cleaned. But they use a different word, a different term to describe this. Such a coin will be described as having been wiped. But the net result is the same, the coin will be designated harshly cleaned.

    One last thing for you to know, there is difference between the two terms - cleaned, and harshly cleaned.

    A coin that has been cleaned is perfectly acceptable.

    A coin that has been harshly cleaned is not acceptable at all.

    But it is commonplace in the course or normal conversation and/or writing for a coin that has been harshly cleaned to be described simply as having been cleaned. This is a contraction of sorts, similar to saying hasn't as opposed to saying has not. Unfortunately the use of this particular contraction can be and is confusing to many, resulting in them thinking that the two terms (cleaned/harshly cleaned) are interchangeable, meaning the same thing. But this is not true, they are not interchangeable at all, even though they are used as such. And used as such by many.

    There are literally millions of coins that have been "cleaned" that are in regular, graded, TPG slabs. A coin that has been rinsed/washed in distilled water is a coin that has been cleaned. A coin that has been rinsed in acetone is a coin that has been cleaned. A coin that has been properly dipped is a coin that has been cleaned. And all of these things are perfectly acceptable and none of them will harm the coin. And the TPGs will accept them and grade them just as they will any other coin.

    Coins that have been harshly cleaned however are coins that have been damaged by the harsh cleaning. And those coins will not be accepted and graded by the TPGs.

    If it is easier to remember then use the terms "properly cleaned" and improperly cleaned". Properly cleaned is good, improperly cleaned is bad. It's just that simple.
     
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  16. ksparrow

    ksparrow Coin Hoarder Supporter

    With respect to the 2 Barbers that Doug posted: the 97-O has streaks and very little luster given the overall lack of wear. It also looks like some grime has been removed from between the stars. The other Barber- to me- does not show signs of cleaning. Probably dipped but I can't convince myself that it's been scrubbed.
     
  17. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    The explanation by NGC for what happened to those two coins was that they had been wiped.
     
  18. Kentucky

    Kentucky Supporter! Supporter

    Or:
    A coin that has been cleaned is undetectable

    A coin that has been harshly cleaned is detectable.
     
  19. physics-fan3.14

    physics-fan3.14 You got any more of them.... prooflikes?

    Doug, that is a very long post, and some of it is true, and some of it is very much not. I don't have the time to pick it apart right now, but I suggest the reader put his claims to the test (on low value coins) and see the results for themselves.
     
  20. green18

    green18 Unknown member Sweet on Commemorative Coins

    Oh dear....
     
  21. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Please be so kind to point out what is not true. When you have the time that is.

    edited version - what you "think" is not true
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2014
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