Featured How to buy US coins that are good values, and not get victimized.

But Doug's point was still a very valid one. Not one single photograph can EVER truly represent every aspect of a coin. No matter how many you take, someone can look at the photograph and then the coin and get different takes. Therefor, by definition, photographs are inherently dangerous to make decisions on UNLESS you have seen in person hundreds of similar coins and have a great knowledge base to know what that coin will look like in hand. I must have said it here 100 times, I am uncomfortable with the "guess the grade" threads since I am not sure what the coin REALLY looks like from one photo.

 

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I agreed with your point 100%. The very types of people you mention are the ones feeding the counterfeit coin distributors I've been posting about. And slabs are an increasingly false point of confidence, since some of the fakes are getting too good even for the TPGs. Fast forward 10 years and the term "countermismatist" may very well apply to the type of collectors you mentioned.

 

And that is exactly why I have never and will never comment on a "guess the grade thread"

 

Lol, you are stronger than I. I point out an area of high point rub, on a coin series I own maybe 40 of, and collected for 20 years, and have 5 trolls immediately throw me under the bus for being an idiot.

 

GDJMSP's point was to completely negate my points and ramble in contradiction, from topic to topic. Let's not disguise it as something else. Too many books out there are worthless. The good ones are expensive and often out of print. Going to coin shows is a socializing hobby that is dwindling. Only retired people have the time and resources to sustain this failing approach to our hobby. You do not have to expose yourself to an aggressive retail sales environment and strict etiquette rules in order to enjoy this hobby for the coins.

 

As long as there is "teh internets" there will be trolls.

 

I think you are right on this point, the approach to the hobby you are talking about can work (it's how I've always done it), but it depends how you jump into it. There are people that say "hey, I want to collect coins" and go right for the key dates and better pieces... they usually end up getting screwed. The good way to do it like this is to start out buying lots and lots of cheaper coins until you get your eyes trained, and keep up to date with free resources on the internet, of which there are tons.
There is not a more important resource in numismatics, or any other hobby, than a trained eye. I often get great eBay buys due to crappy pictures, because with a trained eye you need much less to go off to know what you are seeing.
But training your eyes requires examining genuine coins, fake coins and altered or problematic coins. You have to see what you want to avoid looks like in order to avoid it. And this part is difficult with pictures, though it's a great and free start.

 

WHY are the good books expensive? Are we all just stupid old men, (btw I am 45, maybe not the octogenarian you think)? Or could there possibly be knowledge in them that make them worth it? Have you even taken one of these great books for a series you collect and really gone through it? I have LOTS of examples of where I bought a book and it paid for itself within a month.

Yes, I 100% agree, there are lots of bad books, especially for US coins. I agree you should not just buy the cheapest, you should ask nice members here that collect that series what is their recommendations. But to say ALL books are worthless therefor is silly. The internet can be a good resource, but by definition you are trusting the attribution and information is correct, and the authors of these sites are correctly interpreting the data. Why not go to the source? I find hundred upon hundreds of laughable errors on coin websites every year. The internet has no editorial control, something the youngest generation is not appreciating enough.

 

Nice to share a common proven approach.

Absolutely, with cheaper coins and common dates, you pretty much take the fakes out of the equation.

Absolutely, and realistically speaking, training your eyes to an internet environment for purchases is the present and future of this hobby. There are books worth owning, no one questions that, but, those are not easily accessible and not often affordable. Purchasing those is a step for a slightly more advanced collector.

When people start in this hobby, they rarely know what they want to collect. It takes some time to settle in and decide which coins in hand are most enticing to them. Blowing their money up front on books readily offered at coin shows, without owning a bunch of coins as a reference point first, may prove to be a complete waste of money and time for a beginner.

 

I think Doug's most important point here (at least as I read it) is DO NOT trust photographs of coins on the internet. He's quite right there--the physical appearance of a coin is quite different in diverse lighting situations. Also, given Photoshop, and other photo-editing software, it is extremely easy to remove defects from coins, brighten the luster by enhancing background and foreground, changing exposure, and color. Thus, one should look carefully at any coin purchased online. As an amateur photographer I can advise that one thing to look for to see if the coin photo has been manipulated is the color of the background, and the color of the slab. If they are not the same as the color in hand of a PCGS or NGC slab, one can assume that some manipulation, or different lighting condition has been employed to make the coin look better than it is. The slab should look the same as it does in hand in a photograph--that is a pretty fair indication as to color manipulation, and artificially enhanced brightness in a coin.

 

So, why would you direct a beginner to buy books, first? You assume he/she to be an expert on which coin books are worth their time, before they even purchase some coins for reference? Doesn't make sense.

So, first you are directing the beginner to the internet, so am I.

Have you read my posts in this thread, or just came to piggyback on GDJMSP's posts? I clearly presented examples, with images, of books I own and either find to be useless or am very fond of. I also gave my reasons for both the dislike and fondness. The ones I like, most likely won't be found at most coin shows. The ones I dislike are being peddled at coin shows and in local coin shops as add on sales. I've seen the racks in coin shops and book tables at some coin shows.

If you're going to promote books to beginners, let's have some concrete reviews, not just a vague statement to buy books before coins.

 

Be careful. Speaking about new methods and challenging traditional ideas is dangerous on this forum. Some here are incapable of understanding the concept that technology can and will change the market even as they personally write about all the snipes they set up on eBay themselves and what good deals they have gotten. Of course you have to pay promptly for your purchases unless the world simply revolves around you, and not the other way around.

1. I think that you should address head on what you disagree with in a post instead of making casual references with personal insults. You clearly disagree with a different poster then you are responding to yet instead of using ideas you use insults to debate and discuss. Not a mature way to argue points. I would argue that this behavior makes you the troll.

2. The entire us market for higher end coins is totally at the mercy of tpg's . Unless you are going to different shows that I do (actually a real possibility) you will see that the vast majority of higher end material is slabbed and priced relative to the grade on the slab. I have yet to see a catalog from a serious auction house with more then a handful of raw us coins.

Could not agree more. Many people start collecting from the bottom up. How badly can you be taken advantage of when buying a ten dollar coin? Very few people want to collect books as coin collectors. Starting with cheap coins and looking at them is one of the best suggestions I have read here. And using the internet as a learning tool is a great concept.

 

Why is it such a popular sport here on this forum to first change what someone said then argue against the words put in someone's mouth that they never said? I reviewed his original post and he not only praises a book he even shows a pic of the book so others can investigate the book. How can you make such a statement about what someone is saying without even reading the post you are critiquing? Either you didn't read his post or you misread it.

Allow me to help you out.

I have had many people restate and rephrase what I said and successfully argue against points I never actually said. I find it sad that instead of people on this forum addressing what was said they create their own reality first.

Example

https://www.cointalk.com/threads/bu...e-bad-and-the-ugly.254281/page-2#post-2007726

In this post on a different thread after changing what I said into something else when I dispute the opinion I was "assigned" and ask for evidence I even said it all I get is insults and no evidence from someone too busy to take the time to back their statements yet has plenty of time to dish out insults.

 

Guys, I think there is really a lot of agreement between us, we are just getting our wires crossed lol

 

The wires frequently get crossed when GDJMSP enters a discussion, followed by his disciples. See how the thread was progressing prior to GDJMSP and medoraman entering it as a tag team. They should really work on their contradictions and uninformed post interpretations.

 

I don't think the is a "we" situation as much as a specific, chronic problem some specific posters have. I have yet to see torontokuba or misread a post.

 

First, you throw in a couple of insults to me from a thread a couple of months ago, then you tell ME to be more mature? Look in a mirror.

I have never said technology cannot be used, I use it every day. My POINT would be, if anyone wishes to here it and it really doesn't seem like you do, is technology, photographs, etc are meaningless unless interpreted by knowledge. How do you GET that knowledge? The best way is to actually be around coins. The best numismatists are those people who work at large coin firms, who have the chance to see and handle large numbers of coins every day. Most of us cannot be that. So, we need to get knowledge somehow. A very good way is a large coin show, both the bourse, but also displays and educational seminars. Another way is good books. Another way is talking to people who actually know what they are doing. All of these things are excellent ways to gain knowledge. Short of working for a large firm and having a great mentor teach you, I have found good books to be the quickest way to learn. Shows are good, they give you a baseline of knowing what coins are like in person, but myself I do not go to many anymore personally.

As to who to listen to on the internet, that is always a person's personal choice.

 

Yes, its a specific, chronic problem some specific posters have. Everyone can look at how long each group has been here and the quality of their posts to decide for themselves. I am through with being trolled.

 

I also do not attend coin shows, anymore. There was a time I tried it, not for me, I found them to be a dull, cold and impersonal experience with lots of overpriced junk, glare off the slabs and double glare off the showcase glass.

See, if you use your own head, you come across like a reasonable individual. I hope you don't support the GDJMSP approach, where telling a beginner to go to coin shows and into local dealer shops to look at coins for free is a rewarding option. I would beg to differ. That is a sure way to get a pompous attitude and a cold shoulders, diminishing your efforts to stay with the hobby, because of the response your free gawking attempts will most certainly encounter.

I reiterate, start with owning inexpensive coins, the internet and advice that makes sense to you. Lots of valuable photos, beginner info and even some books are available free on the web. You can't go wrong.