Etiquette: questioning and/or "averaging" grades?

Log in or Sign up to hide this ad.

The TPGs have proprietary grading standards that may or may not coincide with the ANA grading standards. If you disagree with a grade, I think it entirely fine to ask the dealer to shed some light as to why the coin is a surprise for you.

 

I think that the OP's questions have been answered at this point but I feel compelled to state the most people who think that the TPGs grades are incorrect and inconsistent don't fully understand the method of grading employed by the TPGs. They understand how they grade, think their way is correct, and classify any deviation from their grade as incorrect. Think I am wrong, then ask Doug how many times he thinks he has graded a coin incorrectly. Then ask him how many TPG grades are incorrect. The reason for his answers to those question will be explained by the fact that he uses a different system of grading than the TPGs.

 

True, that is the gist of the issue. Why do people accept a "grade" that does not conform to our hobby's stated grading system? That is the "koolaid", accepting a grade that does not conform to ANA grading standards, and a grade that can change at any moment whenever these for profit companies wish to increase their profits. To me, it's entirely too scary to financially rely on a made up grade by a company with restless shareholder to satisfy. Way, way too easy for lower and lower grading standards to slip through whenever they start hurting for revenue. When they devalue the grade, how will collectors be affected?

 

I have you ever considered that some collectors agree more with the TPG grading standards than they do the ANA grading standards? As far as I'm concerned, the ANA standards are not the "hobby's stated grading system." Furthermore, the TPGs don't just change grading standards to boost revenues despite what some people might think.

For my chosen series, Jefferson Nickels, I think that the grading might even be more conservative than it was 25 years ago. Most of the worst MS67 Jefferson Nickels I have ever seen reside in NGC "old fatty" slabs.

 

Then you're missing out on things Geek. Half the fun in this hobby is grading........

 

I think you owe an apology to all of the experienced collectors of this forum. Your comment is utter nonsense--- people here grade just fine. They just don't agree with your rigid, archaic, inflexible manner of grading. They also see value of TPGs in keeping the hobby honest, and standardized, despite their OCCASIONAL mistakes. Doug, you are not infallible, and your insistence that you are a "superior" grader, and the rest of us are peons is extremely rude and tiresome.

 

Wow, you've just floored me with your candor. I have lots to add, but, if it's off-topic and you don't have anything nice to say, well, you know the rest. I hope you don't mind, I'm gonna add you to my friend list. There are so many topics, and in them, so many superiority moments, followed by vague repetitive explanations of why something is so, that I must commend you on your analysis of this situation, and it also applies to many others.

Staying on topic, if none of the TPGs can grade a damn, add to that 90% of collectors and who do we have left?

This comment from a neighboring thread makes me wonder who actually knows grading. Adding up all of GDJMSP's opinions, it can't be a very long list. Grading remains subjective, so, whose opinions about coins are the only ones that matter, if the TPGs and 90% of collectors are discounted up front by our know-it-all forum expert?

 

I am not in the habit of defending Doug. He certainly doesn't need me to do it and we disagree almost all of the time, but when Doug states that 90% of the coin collecting community does not know how to grade, he is talking about the entirety of coin collectors. You are probably thinking about those who post regularly on coin forums. Many of those collectors who you know so well are knowledgeable, know how to grade and identify problem coins, and fall into the 10% category. But what about all the people who buy their coins from the mint, or even worse, the coin hucksters on TV shows? For every coin forum member, there probably are 9 of those guys who are basically novice collectors. So depending upon how you define "coin collector" Doug very well could be right with his 90% number.

 

Doug uses an entirely different system of grading than the TPGs. And while you might not like his system of grading, he is remarkably consistent in his punitive approach. That said, if you ask for his opinion on a TPG graded coin, he will almost always be 2 grades lower than the grade assigned. So if you have a PCGS MS66 and Doug says it is a solid MS64, you should feel good about your coin.

I have had many heated arguments/debates with Doug over the years about a multitude of numismatic topics. And while we disagreed with each other, and often got on each others nerves, the debates clearly explained both points of view and the readers of the thread where left to their own devices to decide who was right and who was wrong. I consider many of our debates some of the most educational threads in Cointalk's history. But without Doug's opinion and my contrasting point of view, those educational threads would not be possible. He simply has a different perspective on numismatics based on his experience. After all, he used to spend what we call "ancients" as a child!

 

I'm sure that Doug would put you in the 10% that can grade some coins. With that said, your post is the only thing I see rude in this thread. I agree that 90% of collectors can't grade correctly most of the time and can't spot problem coins.
I'm talking 90% of all collectors. Not just the collectors here. Big difference. The percentage here would be much less.

 

Meh, I don't think it's utter nonsense. I'd venture 95% of the broader coin grading community can't grade for the sake of their life.

Also I don't really think he came out as infallible nor did he ever allude he was a master grader or expert. I've even seen him specifically state that he isn't an expert.

Why the hatred?

 

He should probably start with defining the grading scale he has in mind when stating 90%. Let's not forget, many collectors out there use the old VG, F, VF, XF, UNC scale for personal use. In all honesty, a well trained monkey could hit those grades with a few comparable photo examples from the internet.

 

Can I ask what the purpose in you writing this was and how it contributes in any shape or form to the thread other than showing your intelligence level?

[/QUOTE] Staying on topic, if none of the TPGs can grade a damn, add to that 90% of collectors and who do we have left?
[/QUOTE]

thousands of collectors or .9*(the collector base)

 

Let me just borrow a trademark style answer from GDJMSP, that should quench any thirst for clarity.

I won't even try to understand the art of grading that you shouldn't question unless GDJMSP approves the length of time you know the dealer, your relationship with him/her, etc.

@Morgandude11 just called a spade a spade. In my opinion he's right on the money with his observations and assessment.

Just keep clicking the like button anywhere your level of intelligence allows you to, I won't question your choices. I choose to support Morgandude11's opinion.

 

Morgandude's impression of Doug is based on many threads of the course of years, not what was written in this specific thread, it is based on the cumulative effect of Doug's presence on this forum. How can someone who is not an expert grader be qualified to challenge the grading proficiency of the TPGs? He may have stated that he is not an expert, but there are a great many posts of his that contradict that statement about his belief of his grading abilities.

 

It's clear that you have much to learn and understand little about what has been said here.

 

I've been a member of the forum since 2009 so I've had a roughly equal exposure to Doug's effective presence on the forum which I believe puts me in a well leveraged position to refute Morgandudes opinion

The use of the word expert is relative. The misunderstanding you appear to have is even the definition of the word has quite a bit of variance between you and Doug's definition of it. You mentioned prior Doug is remarkably consistent in grading. From having quite a bit of discourse with him for the past few years I am inclined to agree.

On a final point I don't think anyone is challenging the proficiencies of the graders per se. I'm sure Doug would agree that every single grader employed by NGC and PCGS knows a thing or two. Rather the center of his argument is that the companies have changed there standards to appeal to their customers and maximize their profitability by giving the consumer what they want; higher grades. As such they direct the graders to grade in the manner that they as a company choose. And I'd have to agree with him. I'd like to think I know a thing or two about numismatics and there are very few coins nowadays that I agree with the grade assigned by the TPG's.

I never really understood why you have so much trouble accepting this whole concept