Etiquette: questioning and/or "averaging" grades?

Stop with the spam posts. We're trying to have a legitimate discussion, and all you are doing is getting off on being insulting.

 

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I usually let the facts determine the proper way of approaching a situation, especially a business transaction where I will be deciding in which direction my money should go. I don't knock on doors looking for a buying opportunity. Usually, I go to a location where transactions are expected and inventory is displayed. I don't care if someone selling is my brother-in-law, uncle or a complete stranger. As usual, you over think to the point of ridiculousness. If your upbringing taught you how to always cautiously walk on eggshells, that is not going to jive with multiple opinions on this forum. Your careful, fearful and full of worry approach that someone might get offended because you ask a question about their inventory or its grade, really puts things into perspective for someone who does not live in "...the land of the free and the home of the brave".

Ok.

 

OK, if we are going to consider him a lowlife right off the bat, there is really no reason not to question the grades. What do you have to lose? What should you be afraid of? NOTHING!

Have you never bought a slab from a major TPG at a 70%-80% discount? I have. That might be the result if you ask. Remember, there is always the tourist price and the informed customer price.

 

Spamming? What exactly am I spamming?

Why was your post not insulting: "Nonsense. TPGs are NOT "kool Aid." You don't like them--buy raw coins, and enjoy some problem/cleaned coins in the process that you can't detect."

But mine is?
"Enjoy your counterfeit coins in counterfeit slabs that you can't detect."

Does this uninsult my post?

And who died and left you in charge to tell people what to do?

 

OP, why would you NOT believe there are simply tons of overgraded coins around? Think about it, let's assume, (lol), that TPG's are correct 90% of the time. 5% they overgrade, and 5% they undergrade. Well, who EVER cracks out an overgraded coin? No one, so that coin stays in that holder forever. The undergraded ones get cracked out and resubmitted. What about the "correctly" graded ones? Even those get cracked out by optimists hoping to upgrade, and if they do upgrade to too high a grade it stays there forever as well. Churn enough coins over an over and the only possible grade is either the correct one or an overgraded coin. I have said forever that for 99.8% of slabbed coins the grade on the slab is really the highest POSSIBLE grade for the coin, not the "correct grade".

So, knowing that, collectors have to know how to grade and only cherrypick out the coins that are fairly graded. How has this changed from the past? The answer is it hasn't, except the hobby now has millions drained from it every year in "grading fees". Yes, there are problem coins that are not slabbed that collectors need to avoid, but there has always been them. The difference is in the past we told people to educate themselves, now everyone is lazy and just relies on TPG's to their detriment.

Regarding the "enjoy some problem/cleaned coins in the process that you can't detect" post, while I know it was not directed at me do you really think collectors like me CAN'T tell these things? I have been around AT coins for years, around problem coins for years. I have seen the tricks people can do to cover up things, and how to identify such things. I was brought up in this hobby that you have to actually get educated and learn. I will be the first to advocate using TPG's for items that have been counterfeited heavily. I would even use a TPG if I wanted to buy a 1909sVDB for some reason, or a 1916d dime. However, to say a large amount of collectors have to use a TPG because we are incapable of identifying a problem or cleaned coin is frankly insulting to the knowledge of this hobby.

 

I totally agree. But the free market adapts and the price for a tpg grade (average coin) reflects this. So it all cancels out.

 

Yes and no. Those who do not really know how to grade just blindly accept the slab grade, and pay accordingly. Only those who know how to grade themselves pay attention to the actual coin, and not the slab. So, in a world where every collector could grade properly themselves it would all even out, but no one is accusing this hobby of being perfect.

 

Fair enough. But if the guy who blindly accepts the grade puts the coin up in an eBay or eBay like environment they are likely not to do all that badly as some others will accept the grade deserved or not. So there still is some market protection for the guy blindly buying. You can still get burnt but tpg's add a layer of insulation between the amateur and the fire.

 

Plus you have to figure in the appeal of the coin beyond the technical grade. I can't count he number of coins I click on by grade and the second I see them I say yuck! Just cause said coin is say xf-40 doesn't mean it don't have a lousy strike unsightly marks ugly toning or been dipped to death. Best advice but the coin not the slab. And a graded coin with a bean can help filter things out too not like cac is the be all end all either but it can help

 

Just last week I went to a local shop, we talked a bit and then I told him I was putting together a set of Barber halves, mostly from junque silver, but there were a few I needed, one that I had been missing was an 1895 New Orleans issue, he had one and called it a vg, I looked at the coin and asked him if he could see any parts of the liberty on the head band, he looked handed it back and dropped the price to the proper grade, another local shop had the same coin and were asking 30 for it, this one had a bit more rim and I paid 20.

But I have dealt with the man since getting involved in the hobby, so it is not like I just popped into the shop to demean his grading skills and trash his coins.

 

The OP is looking for absolutes in an opinionated industry.

Absolutes simply do not exist where "opinions" are in play as no two people will ever agree on anything when money is involved. Consensus can be difficult if not impossible with regard to assigning a grade. It is the "trust" in the TPG's (or dealers) consensus which defines the market and the relative price of a coin.

Folks tend to forget that this entire industry created by the TPG's was based upon what a coin should sell for "according to the current market" based upon an independent third party where the seller is the 1st party and the buyer is the 2nd party.

Since coin dealing began, coin dealers, as coin owners, have been over pricing (grading) their wares. Even amongst themselves, which is "why" the TPG business was originally created. To stop the bickering.

A new generation of collectors exists today who simply were not a part of the birthing process that TPG's went through. As such, they tend to give absolute power to the TPG when the reality is that there would be no need for a TPG (in the market) if people could all agree.

TPG's render "opinions" and nothing more because the coin that they graded MS63, upon crackout resubmission could come back as MS64 or even MS62 because even TPG's are made up of multiple graders who entertain different "opinions" on the same coin.

The bottom line is that buyers have the choice of either buying the coin (regardless of posted or slabbed grade) or not buying the coin.

 

Touche.

Like you said, I've been here long enough for everyone to know this answer.

 

Nail.........meet Hammer!

 

I guess that's my problem, I really do not get insulted very easily, certainly not from being asked a question that would be related to the business I'd be in, if I were a dealer.

I'd like to report the fact that you stepped off your eggshells, please get back on. No, I prefer it when you do not hold your tongue. The caution about asking a question, I really do not see a reason for it, but, maybe that's just me.

 

I agree with Doug to an extent. You will not get your preferred reaction with outright questioning his grading. His first instinct will be to be insulted. If you are trying to create a relationship with this dealer, or buy this coin, this is not where you want to go.

However, I will admit when I see horrible grading sometimes I just do not care and will sit down and explain to the dealer how he is wrong. This happens most frequently with ancients. I will sit down and explain to him how this corroded, miserable coin is not XF!. Usually the first thing out of their mouth is, "but its so old, its XF considering its age". Usually I pull up a site like CNG and how ancient coins do survive in high grades, and his miserable, corroded coins are Good at best. Most dealers get insulted, but some actually listen and become more educated and learn how they made a bad purchase. I have a couple of dealers who I now get along with well, and appreciated the advice. However, like I said, most don't, so don't attempt this unless you have absolutely no interest in buying from them, and you truly are just trying to educate them in something you believe they are deficient in.

 

Maybe "large amount" was incorrect verbage. With the advent of TPG's I have seen the number of good graders go down every year, you are correct. Its sad, but true. I think maybe the TPG's are hoping at some point the entire hobby will be devoid of anyone able to live without them, then they can jack up the rates even higher.

But, there ARE some of us dinosaurs left though, right? We all don't need to "enjoy our problem coins" you will buy without the blessing of a TPG.

 

I'm a little confused. I understand that it is common to critique, evaluate and assess art. You can question it in an attempt to understand the conveyed meaning or message of the finished work. Your opaque view seems to state that grading is an art which one cannot question. That is nothing more than a deranged recipe for a communist style monopoly over a carte blanche cash cow.