The "I don't buy Coins from coin dealers at shows and stick to online buying" thread

I have found coins to be generally cheaper on ebay or other online auctions. Coin shows mostly are a big waste of time.

 

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Why so absolute.

I have found many, many great coins at shows.

Just one, but my current favorite:

1806
O-127a

R-7

Grade: G-4
[Note: no condition census given for die state. However, O-127: 20,20,15,12,12)
Obverse: 12-s2
Reverse: H

Diagnostics:
Obverse: Die Crack, Y above T at top.
Reverse: Berries do not have stems.


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Actually, my favorite since 2011.

Cherried.

 

The internet is changing the way the new generation handles and enjoys this hobby.

The dealers stuck in their old ways will have no choice but to adapt or go out of business (or close to it, profit wise). Its just a matter of this 'market' we are all so fond of listening to what the consumers of the product want and giving it to them in a fashion that they deem acceptable.

Every day that passes with the internet around, moves the ticker closer to those of us who rely and utilize the vast world of the internet, this thing isnt going away and this trend is almost irreversible.

Oh, and 90% or more of my coin purchases are online, and 95% of what I would consider my 'Quality Coins' came off the internet. Just a better selection and variety to choose from almost instantaneously.

I love the coin show and atmosphere and haggling and all of that good stuff, but statistically, i just buy more online where I can compare. Oh and Vic is right, my phone is in my hand the entire time I am walking the floor, simply so I can educate myself on the fly and decide on the best purchase.

Thats what every mentor or pearl of wisdom in this hobby hinges on, education and making smart purchases. Vic is just telling us how he does it and why, and from what I can see, he is just using one more tool that he has put into his belt and what he is saying is that even with sparse knowledge he can assemble a collection that would rival a long time collector who had to really put forth the effort.

He just has found a shortcut that works for him and has been good to him, whats so wrong with that?

 

So, don't read what I have to say--ignore everybody who disagrees with you. They are wrong, unpleasant, rude, or whatever. You don't have the knowledge to make intelligent purchases. I wish I was selling to you on Ebay

 

So I over payed on the svdb? Should I have gotten it for $10 under dealer offer? You make lots of great statements yet you refuse to acknowledge that I have done what I say, and proved it with results.

How about a compromise? You tell me how I over payed on my three examples. Then what i will do is give prices I paid on any do the other coins I've posted here. The game can stop when you find say three overpaid coins that I didn't choose to overpay. The overpaid coins are basically my coin facts example coins and I definitely acknowledge having paid a premium on some.

 

What I am really having a hard time understanding is this. I'm not saying this is theoretically possible. I'm not saying maybe this could work. I'm saying I've done it, other people here have done it, and here are some examples of how well it works with detailed clear pics and prices so people can judge if my claim of both high quality and low price is accurate. And all I've heard is it won't work. Not discussing what has already been done by analyzing my purchases. For example, no comment like the svdb is overgraded or the color was not worth the price.

I feel like I'm watching/reading atlas shrugged but instead of telling the guy the bridge won't hold with new construction materials people have seen the train cross the bridge yet are still saying it won't work even though they just saw the train go by.

It has been a very lively thread though.

 

The problem is the old timers have a vested interest and ego attached to the 'old ways' that isn't computing the fact that some of us young crowd can use technology to hedge some of our weaknesses and jump over some of that hard work that they deemed necessary to be successful at this game.

I can't understand why people can't look at this and say 'hey, this works for VV, he provided some proof, so maybe I can do this'. I can understand why dealer types would want to dissuade the crowd, but any advocate for the collector should be saying at least try your method if for nothing more than to learn another way to approach the hobby and to gain the insight.

I like your coins, and would want to own many of them myself.

I can also say that the majority of my shopping is via online venues, and that I utilize that same tool at shows. Comparing coins and checking prices to ensure I am getting the most for my money. It's not my job to be competitive, that's the dealers and they have the same access I do.

Right now I have many interests and can always find a good dealer with a good piece to help support for my enjoyment of the show and the very chance to be there.

So for instance if I was in your place with the Thick Norse, I would note that I could buy one cheaper than at the show, add it to my watch list, and then move on to spend a few bucks at the show, to as I said earlier, support the good dealers and ensure the shows continue in the future.

I'm so in love with the hobby that I honestly enjoy it all, even fooling with aggravating dealers and attending lame shows from time to time. I don't want to lose any of it so I support it (the good stuff anyway) and enjoy it while it's here, but at the same time, I refuse to spend my hard earned money on crap or inflated prices. Thus I shop accordingly.

 

It's like children convinced some food tastes horrible yet watching their parents eat and enjoy it right in front of them.

Of all those posts against, only a few were civil. Some even went past the point of critiquing the concept and went straight into personal attacks.

I would have totally respected and acknowledged the main point of my theory being criticized this way. "So you made o few good buys. A stopped clock is right twice a day. Show me more data points to convince me you might actually be on to something". And were I confronted with I would have continued to post coins and prices. However no one even acknowledged the three first coins as a good buy. People just waved their hand and said it wouldn't work despite me showing evidence.

I do love the references to arrogance not because I said how great or smart I was but because I challenged others opinions and simply would not bend to arguments that would not address my evidence for my claim.

We differ here. I don't care what a dealer "needs" nor if they go out of business. All I care about is getting what I want at the best coin at the best price possible. A dealer can either adapt or fail. Neither is my concern and I will never pay more then I have to in order to support anyone.

 

We should agree that there are several methods of buying that work well. There is no one method that is the best all the time and every coin is a different story.

 

This is where it pays to be on the lookout for more than one coin or have an interest in many series or types.

So if I go to a show, and I

A) Either dont see whats at the top of my priority list

or B) Find some examples I am after but find better deals online,

Then I move on to coins that I can walk out with that day.

There is ALWAYS a good deal to be found at any location/venue, its just a matter of if you can spot it over someone else, before they do. Which is where the knowledge pays off and lets more savvy collectors recycle free money back into the hobby to obtain more coins.

This is how I approach shows.

I have a list say of top 10 coins I am looking for, that gives me a good chance of finding something that I want or need. These are gonna be my scarce types and what I walk the floor first looking for.

Second on my list will be coins in sets I am working on, but not super actively. Say like my 3rd Gem Franklin set, or my Gem Jefferson set.

Third thing I am looking for if none of that works are coins I might be able to turn around and flip here or on ebay or to a dealer to make a little scratch to support another coin buy down the road.

Last thing I am looking for, if all else fails and it isnt on my list is a piece of silver or two.

So the way I am playing the game is just about the same as you, except I make sure I always get my little fix someway or another, at the show, since that was my intentions.

I mean at the very least silver is silver and it has tracked inflation well, so I dont mind spending money at the show on a few pieces to put back so i dont leave empty handed. I went to the show to spend money afterall, and thats typically what I do.

So I am not supporting the dealers or show by them selves, I am supporting my want and desire to own more coins, but in order for me to have that opportunity I feel I must attend a show here and there and help out the dealers who make an honest effort to be courteous and helpful, but also maintain good deals.

 

I'm pretty sure we are on the same page here. I think the small differences are just because of collecting strategy. You have coins you want, and thus need to find them. If you need a certain coin I can see how one venue would be better then another.

My collecting style is different. I collect pretty coins not otherwise specified. I have no want lists I have no coins on a want list. As a free range collector because I have no real constraints it is easier for me to collect. So I have no venue needs nor restrictions.

What I can say is this. I'm dropping my second batch of coins on ebay now. Some will be bought by collectors. Not all but some. Why is this important? The one and only function of a coin dealer is to act as a bridge between collectors. I don't know who wants to buy and they don't know who wants to sell. So the coin dealers job is to facilitate the transaction. I'm not saying this with judgement. Every job has a purpose. I'm trying to identify the value and the purpose of the dealer. Why they are paid. What they do. I have nothing for or against the concept of a facilitater of a transaction. I've used title companies buying a house. I understand that some transactions need facilitation.

In the past all coin transactions were done either via large auction house or dealer. But today there is a third option and the number of collector to collector transactions is just increasing.

It is just simple math. I want more money. On line I am getting 87% of retail. With selling coins in the past I can say in my experience I am pretty sure I never got this high a percent from a dealer. Further, with my first batch of ebay coin sales I can say I got more money through ebay than I was offered at the show.
Does this mean dealers are going to go out of business? Probably not. But it does mean with time there will be increasing market pressure to decrease margins. Anytime a job is mechanized the need for people and the margins both go down. I doubt coins will be the exception to the rule. It really is a new day.

 

I got a chuckle out of this statement. Rather than respond specifically to this broad assertion, I will attempt to provide some "old man" perspective that may be relevant to the OP's thread:

1) Nobody seeks to overpay for a coin, regardless of venue. Having pricing knowledge (i.e. derived from on-line auction archives and other resources) about a targeted coin is critical before buying. Experienced collectors do this as a matter of course.

2) I like to buy coins that have a lot of eye appeal and are specifically attractive to me. So, I must take into account that these coins will normally have a premium factor because others want them too and I must establish whether that premium is something I'm willing to pay. I don't begrudge a dealer who knows the value of what he is selling compared to generic examples. Truly distinctive coins most often command a premium. If you want a generic coin, go to the internet where you will likely find the lowest possible price. This doesn't mean distinctive, eye appealing coins can't be found on the web, of course. However, at least initially, one will have to rely upon photos that can be deceiving.

3) I always review a coin in hand before finalizing a buying decision. I find large shows (FUN, ANA, Central States) give me a convenient method to identify a high number of great coins in a consolidated time period. Since I only purchase a few coins a year, this makes sense for me and I get to see them first hand without mailing things back in forth where unfortunate complications can arise. Does this mean I will overpay just because I'm at a show? I've not found that to be the case.

4) I realize that many may think that collector/dealer relationships aren't worth edited, but knowing and building a mutually trusting relationship with a few can bring you value in terms of coin access, pricing, resale, and education. I don't believe I've had to overpay for these benefits. I believe it is more difficult to build such relationships and obtain this value if one buys exclusively on-line. I've certainly obtained hobby knowledge from coin forums like this, but I've also learned by having in-person dealer conversations that would be hard to duplicate buying via the on-line method exclusively.

There is no right or wrong way to obtain coins for one's collection. Great coins can come from many sources and often do. Old geezers know this and young bucks should not assume that we are constrained by ego if we wish to emphasize one option over another.

 

Im sorry CatBert but my sentiment still stands. I was trying to be nice how I worded it, but I sincerely believe that many of the older guys, and this isnt necessarily an age barrier, but a mentality barrier as well, just dont like the fact that folks like, Vic, Geek, and myself can come onto the coin scene and successfully purchase coins with a similar savvy without having to put in 20 years of handling coins and reading books.

In the old days you had to read books and talk to dealers and fondle many coins to be able to know which ones were good and what the surviving population might be. Many of us new collectors can see a coin that interests us or that we like at a show and can immediately compare prices across 5 or more examples without moving another step.

So when I say these older folks have a vested interest, its because they spent alot of time, money, and effort learning about the hobby over several years and the newer generation can catch up to some of that (not all) in a much shorter amount of time.

I will be the first to admit that the wisest of collectors will utilize all that is available to them and not simply stick to one method or over look things because it might be a little difficult.

I just dont think you will convince me that the majority of the older collectors and many of the dealers out there dont envy some of us new guys for being able to hold our own when dealing with them.

Imagine this, I saunter up to your counter, right now I look like a knowledgeable fella, but put some glasses on me and a grungy t-shirt with my nose buried in an iphone and most dealers are going to assume I dont know squat about coins. So this dealer is likely to do several things, he may try to take advantage of me with high prices, and hes very likely to be authoritative since dealing coins is 'his job', and will try to be hard on his sell to get the most value out of me. Now imagine that geeky image of me, stepping up and letting that dealer know that he is wrong, his coin is over priced, and that if he wishes to sell it to me today he needs to be inline with the 4 other prices i flip my phone around and show him are available online. That dealer is going to feel like this young nerd just pulled one over on him, and it will hurt his ego. He may still make the sell depending on financials, but most older men would still feel a bruise to their ego over being shown up by someone mentally deemed to be inferior to that almighty dealer.

Im a man, I hang around many different other men, and from what I observe we are the most fragile beings ever when it comes to someone making us feel less confident or bruising our ego. Sure my thought about the 'old timers' may be a generalized statement, but ive lived life long enough to know that most men are competitive and dont like being outdone, especially by the perceived underdog.

Im sorry if i offended you with my 'old timers' remark, but like I said its more a mentality then a reference to age.

I guarantee you the new age dealers and collectors would be less likely to take offense if someone showed them a better deal online, but then again that younger generation of dealer wouldve already checked online and priced their wares accordingly.

 

Don't be sorry. I wasn't offended. I was merely amused at the broad brush you use. I can't speak for all the "old timers", only for myself who happens to be in his 50s. However, I don't think you can refute what I wrote.

I sense from your comments that you feel disrespected by dealers who you believe are pricing coins higher based upon their perception of you. I'm not sure that this behavior is exclusively directed toward younger, web savvy collectors like you.

As you stated, if you have so many other lower cost options than what the dealer is quoting you, then why be upset about it? I've certainly been quoted prices that I felt were unreasonable and I don't have the hypothetical grunge appearance to "deserve" it. It's not about showing someone up or ego - it should be either pass or play in your mind. Not worth getting upset over it.

 

So, now we are all 'mental'?

[as in mental cases?]

 

Trey, you and 'Geek come off as mild mannered and polite in your posts. Some folks are know it all's but not you two........

 

I've had dealers call me out of the blue I had no idea where they got my cell phone number. I don't mean random people. I mean people I've bought and sold with. The dynamics may be different but the opportunity is still there.

As for right and wrong, it appears you are in the minority for this opinion. I had thought my style bought me great deals but I guess for some reason the coins I posted were not good deals at all. Lots of people here are telling me that what I have already done can't work even though I can produce these coins and more as evidence. No one has actually pointed to my evidence and pointed out problems. No one asked to see more evidence, of which I have.

In my field people are excited when a new possible solution for an old problem is found. People look, they kick the tires and then ask some questions. Then they judge. Do you realize that no one telling me it wouldn't work asked me even one clarifying question nor critiqued the quality or quantity of my evidence?

So I think it would appear that there is only one way to collect and buy coins successfully if you listen to the majority opinion here. But don't worry I'll try harder. My next svdb I promise to only be $10 under dealer purchase offer instead of $20.

 

By our very nature of collecting coins and having a desire to own these little jewels, we are ALL mental. Just ask Doug, he'll agree.

 

I agree. We're all nuts........