Ancient Gold Authentic?

An interesting thought had crossed my mind earlier today. If I were to have a nice chunk of Gold nugget couldn't I chisel and hammer away at it creating an ancient design and saying it is an Ancient Gold Coin when in reality it was a chunk of gold found in the ground that was hammered to look like an ancient coin?

Lets say that I have been doing this for 25 years and have perfected a technique that can emulate known examples of ancient gold coins.

 

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It would be a counterfeit just like counterfeit coins today. Depending on the level of expertise of the person you were trying to sell it too and the quality of the fake...it might pass for real or it might not. Just like a modern counterfeit coin.

Also, it would be just as illegal to knowingly sell it as real as it would be for a modern US coin.

 

Obviously it would be a counterfeit and illegal to sell but suppose that nobody could ever tell the difference since I perfected it after 25 years? The only way one could be sure an ancient gold coin is indeed authentic is if you used carbon dating or some other method of determining how old an object is.

Note: I didn't create this thread to say that I'm going to make fake ancient gold coins and sell them to people that would be wrong. I made this thread to start a discussion on how do you know your ancient gold is real? maybe someone who has been working on perfecting counterfeits using real gold made the coin and buried it in dirt for a few years.

 

Does gold not carbon date? If it does, does it date from the time it became gold or from the time it was minted into a coin?

I think (uneducated guess) authenticity would be determined by looking at the coin. (Ancient guys/gals are going to get me now...) I imagine the flan and the design would show characteristics of a coin incompatible with other known types.

Some famous forger who's name should not be remembered said something to the effect of if a forgery can't be detected then it isn't a forgery.

 

I am a little confused which ancient coins you would be attempting to emulate? You are being very general. I doubt you could grab a chisel and a gold nugget and create an aureus.

Are you talking about cutting a die and then stamping good gold with an ancient design?

 

so I researched minting ancient gold coins for 25 years and perfected a technique that would make my counterfeit look exactly like the real deal. Aside from physical appearance is there a way to date the coin/ ensure its authenticity? if the answer is no then you may or may not own ancient gold coins that are fake but can't be proven fake because they were so well made.

 

Josh, I swear you are Detectos long lost brother.

 

No, gold doesn't carbon date, it should have little carbon, and since dating is the ratio of carbon-14 radioactive in an organic sample, as every 5270 years, half of the remaining C-14 has been decayed to N-14.

Gold can be dated by chem ratios of natural contaminants Uranium--> lead, or a new way with U--> Thorium + radiogenic He.4, but most answers are approx 500 millions year ago, way before coins.

http://geology.gsapubs.org/content/early/2012/11/28/G33751.1.abstract

 

Josh , they could tell if they were fakes just like we can tell fakes with die markers and minute flaws like tooling marks . Yes theoretically it could be done if the dies were perfect in every way . Still why would you want to . BTW this has been discussed in a few threads that I know of .

 

I am not sure there is an answer for someone who believes that ancient coins were carved from lumps of metal but there is definitely more to learn than 25 years would cover. If one were to try to develop a skill in a specific style, perhaps, but covering coins from a thousand places over a thousand years will take a while. Are there fake ancients made by modern masters? You bet there are. Do we own coins that are so well made that we can not prove they are fake? Probably. Are there coins that 'experts' disagree on whether they are fake or real? Certainly. In 25 years one can not learn to be infallible in telling all fakes from real. Certainly there are those who may be 99% likely to be right but there is always room for a slip up you find out about and an unknown number of errors that you have not yet discovered. I suspect I have an unrealized fake in my collection. I do not know which one it is. I wonder if it is one that I should have suspected had I been more 'expert' or a real sleeper. I wonder if it is one I bought from a seller who knew more than I do. I will never know these answers. That is the nature of the hobby - like it or not.

 

...and the exact same logic could be used to say any modern coin in our collections is fake...or any other collectible is fake too.

That's it...I've decided to end all of my collecting hobbies based on this concern.

 

You should think more carefully about how you treat people. I have nothing in common with Detecto. no offense to Detecto.

 

Thanks for providing some useful information. My point being is exactly what you said:
Do we own coins that are so well made that we can not prove they are fake? Probably.

 

You might not in your personal life...but your forum behavior is quite similar.

 

You can make that EXACT same statement about modern coins. So...what's your point?

 

If I remember correctly this past apri Detecto made a thread about his car breaking down or something along those lines and was asking if we could help him out. Do you see me using the forums in this way? I think not.

I know what I've done on this forum. my actions speak for themselves. Sure I've made a fool of myself but I've done some good things here as well.

 

You have done good things here. I like you Josh and your energy. I didnt intend on insulting you.

 

Well I was not aware of that. The reason is because modern coins are struck using machines and machines are known to have little error involved.

Ancients on the other hand are hammered by a human being therefore human error is involved in the minting process which allows for imperfections to be accepted.

 

If the coins being struck are from a country that no longer exists, it would not be considered counterfeit, but it would still be fake and probably very easy to identify as a fake. As much as I hate to go around quoting Doug, gold to tones and shows age that would be very difficult to replicate.

 

I'm afraid your understanding of ancient and modern minting processes and forgeries is causing you to draw incorrect conclusions. I'd also suggest that you not over interpret or cherrypick Doug's post to assume that there are a high quantity of difficult to detect fake ancient coins on the market. Quite contrarily, I'd wager that there are more fake modern coins which are much harder to distinguish from genuine examples (especially some of the recent ones coming out of China, complete with fake PCGS slabs).

Yes, coins of all eras are faked but there are many ways to guard ones self from them and any major auction house/seller would lose credibility quickly if it let an inordinate number of counterfeit coins slip by. Collectors and sales are highly connected these days thanks to the internet and knowledge spreads quickly; knowledge about selling bad goods spreads even faster.

There are few things in this world that can be said with certainty (the sun may not come up tomorrow, we could all be living in a hologram, and 1+1 could equal 3) but I am utterly confident in the authenticity of every one of my ancient coins (in all metals), as are the dealers from which I've purchased them and the other dealers/services I've used to provide secondary authentication for each of the pieces I've acquired.

As to if we're living as projections from a 2D hologram or not, I'm much less certain