Featured Chicago ANA Show Report

I don't know, kinda like Monday morning quarterbacking. When the problem arose they did take care of it by stopping current and apparently future mint sales at shows. IMO, clearly the dealers' greed caused this problem by hiring pawns to buy for them to circumvent ordering limits – if not illegal, clearly unethical. The hobby would be better off without these dealers – how about kicking them out of the ANA? Or, like corporate control over the US government, are these dealers controlling the ANA?

 

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They will never get rid of them--

too many $'s for the ANA

 

Probably true in the short run. But, as history has shown, major changes occur when the corruption becomes overbearing.

 

That's how I see it. Think of all those admissions of people who would not have come to the show (six buck a head times 2,500). Some bought memberships. The ANA was probably able to charge more for booths near the Mint. I suspect that whatever the Next Big Thing the Mint plans for next ANA (maybe a change of design of the gold American Eagle to the Panama-Pacific slug? Mind you, on a limited basis.) it will be conducted with better security, but still in such a way as to land the overwhelming majority of pieces in the dealers' pockets.

 

Just a thought. Would it be possible for the ANA to reserve a nearby venue to house things like the mint first-day releases that past experience suggests will get out of control. The mint wins because they will have a ready source of customers already in place. The ANA can win by recouping cost through the rental agreement, yet still having the draw of the first-day sales. The dealers win due to the influx of buyers in search of the first day release who may also buy other coins, and from the removal of hundreds of people that wouldn't buy coins in any case. Put the TPGs with the mint so they can certify first day coins, but still be close enough to certify walk-ins from the show. Collectors win because they can access both the mint products, while still attending a reasonably sane show.

 

If you read other threads you will see posts from people that were in line relating stories of dealers handing out credentials to their paid line sitters. Where did the dealers get these credentials?
This was an ANA show, in the end the ANA is mostly responsible.
Edit to add that I am an ANA member.

 

BTW, I enjoyed reading your report TomB. You should have split your report into two parts. This one will end up being about nothing but the "bad" show.

 

This was my first ANA convention, so I can't compare it to others, but overall I enjoyed the event. I did have hopes of getting a piece of the Kennedy gold, but wasn't willing to fight the lines to get it. I was there mainly to experience the convention and browse the bourse.
It would have been nice if the ANA and Mint could have worked more closely together. If the limit was 500 per day, I think a lottery system would have been better. It would have given more people the chance to get a coin. You may still have people trying to take advantage of the system, but I'd think it would be more of a gamble for them. Another option would be to substantially increase 500/day limit, so many more people have a chance to get the coin. I think either of these options would have helped reduce the chaos significantly.
As far as the first day goes dealers had the advantage because they were able to register before collectors and you had to be registered to get a coin. It would have been nice if the ANA could have created a system that was fair for both dealers and collectors in that respect.

 

Are you suggesting that the US Mint, when they are selling their special collector coins, is NOT a for profit company?

Would be a rather tacky thing to do when they have a whole section dedicated to other Mints from around the world and they are selling their products.

Are you suggesting the ANA dictate to booth holders what they can and can not sell?

And it could have been worse. Until the last few days they were planning for the line to form INSIDE the bourse floor, and to even announce at the last minute where the line should form at some random place on the floor. Could you see all those people crammed into the show floor milling about and then an announcement that "The first 500 people to get to X can get tickets to buy a proof gold Kennedy

They always have a boy scout coin collecting merit badge clinic on Saturday.

But if the Mint decides to go ahead and do one, how do you stop them? Break your contract with them and deny them their booth?

And potentially embroiled themselves in another lawsuit for breach of contract.

And you think that would stop them? I'd sign it and then happily turn my coin over to the person paying me to stand in line. What's the mint going to do, track me down a year later and make me prove the coin is still in my collection?

Sorry no new collectors allowed, you can only buy this exciting new coin if you have bought from us in the past.

Of course all the buyers from those "reprobates" would be on the Mints customer database, so they could go ahead and pick up the coins and turn them over to their employers.

No, because if they had tried to enforce it this year they could potentially have been sued for breach of contract. But they CAN write it into the bourse contract for future shows.

Credentials to get into the show require filling out a card with a name and address and paying $6. Get a bunch of the cards fill them out with names and addresses, fake or real doesn't matter, and then pay the money. Receive the credentials. At many shows just a wristband that allows you access to the show floor.

The mints lawyers are very reluctant to touch any kind of a lottery.

On the face of it this would seem to make the most sense, but the problem is you would need a lot more point of sale registers and you have a space problem. My understanding is they had two working registers (they did have three but one broke down) and it took 6 hours to ring up the sale of those 500 coins. That's 42 sales per register per hour or one sale every 80 seconds.

 

Preregistration was available until July 15.

 

Here is an interesting fact....the US Mint does not pay for the booth.....the ANA gives it to them...this is from the horses mouth.

 

If that's how you feel, I regret to inform you I believe you are a fool. This is a matter of contracts and reasonable expectations of what is allowed. Let me illustrate.

Everything that is considered to be in the normal course of business for any table holder is allowed by implication. Warranty of suitability for a particular purpose. For the US Mint, they have sold brand new issues for years. What has changed? Special slabs from PCGS and NGC now exist and people bid them up. Having contracted with the Mint, the ANA had no ability to alter the terms of the contract after the fact. That's why contracts exist. There are SOME prohibitions in the pre-existing contract. No counterfeits, even if revealed as such. Coin club tables are gratis, but the prohibition against competing with commercial dealers will get a club banned.

Now everyone knows what the market is like when special slabs create artificial rarity. Keep in mind that this is an unlimited "mint to demand" issue, unlike the Baseball HOF coins. Now all US Mint contracts with ANA will give the ANA what it never needed before, but now does - the ability to restrict Day 1 releases.

Your claim that if they can do it from now on means they could have done it this year is frankly ignorant hogwash, sir.

 

Thanks for the report Tom! I'll put my 2 cents in first I couldn't care less about gold Kennedy's to me their scrap gold period and a design I haven't liked since day one!! That being said I was following and bidding on both the major auctions from my hotel in Manchester nh where I was doing a major antique show. I will second Toms opinion that anything original rare and with great color was hot!! I found the coins I liked very difficult to buy and had very limited success. I couldn't touch any of the trade dollars I liked and ended up with 3 coins I paid plenty for but really liked!! Honestly I'm glad I weren't there as I have a hard time dealing with that kind of crowds or insanity!!

 

I was a dealer at the show. I had a chance to speak with all the ANA higher ups and the Mint higher ups. After speaking with everyone that had intimate knowledge of the issues, the ANA was clearly in a bad position and should not be held responsible.

The only thing that I did not get an honest answer about was what was the ANA's involvement with the dealers who "recruited" outside members by the bus loads. I spoke with one of these dealers who informed me that they notified the ANA of their intentions 4 months ago and that they had the ANA's blessing. I could neither confirm this statement but I would be very disappointed if this were the case. Unfortunately, something happened to me at the show that kinda supports this. I had one of Rhonda's minions come out and tell me personally that they were to make sure that I was not able to get a coin on the first day. This came right from her mouth. Essentially, I was being blackballed for disrupting the ANA's plans. This is directly from ANA personnel. I was quite disappointed about that.

 

How exactly would you suggest the ANA stop SilverTowne from registering, with full dealer credentials, Ling Cho Huan, who speaks little to no English and has never even HEARD OF coin collecting before, just so Ling can get in line at 7pm for the next day's sale three nights in a row?

That is what was happening, and by Thursday afternoon, dear Ling was getting kinda "ripe". The problem is First This and First That slabs and the madness surrounding them. There will BE NO SHORTAGE of the coin itself.

Beisbol bin bery bery BAD to us. The new normal is now utter madness. Meanwhile, the best long term bet of this year - the Civil Rights Act dollar, goes unloved. And the unlovedness now is precisely why it will be a long term winner, when the HOF and JFK are selling slightly over melt.

 

So as to return the pleasantry suggested in your comment above; I respectively put you in the same league as I. IMHO. Since you are a ANA volunteer, I'm not surprised by your defense of the ANA's position. It's always better when it's not your fault but the fault of the other party.

 

Well, I was at the show...starting Saturday for the PNG part which was not worth the time and money to come out early. My last day was Friday the 8th.

While I agree with a lot of what has been said, I personally experienced the line on Tuesday...no, didn't get my gold but I am not heartbroken. Got plenty of clads but never had anyone offer me money for them. And yes, a vast majority of the people in the stupid lines were Chinese in groups as mentioned by Bellman.

I personally talked to a Mr. Krauss, who must be a big dealer but I am not sure if he is related to the publication people or not. As I described in another post, he told me how they circumvent the online ordering by having hundreds of people they pay a fee to to order for them using their own credit cards and then sending the items to him for payment within a month. An easy money making proposition for them. So the idea that only selling to mint customers only sure wouldn't stop the plethora of dealers' minions, as I like to call them, from ordering tons of coins when they are issued.

On another note, while I did not pre-register for the event, when I talked to ANA staff setting up Monday morning, they told me to come back that afternoon and I could get my creds. Sure enough, my wife and I went back and got our creds around 4pm so I could get in line Tuesday morning.

I have posted my opinions, feelings, observations from the show a lot. While we did not "rush" to the US Mint when the doors opened Tuesday...we stopped at the Coin World booth to get our free Kennedy halves...we did go over and get in line to get the clad halves. All of them I bought over the two days I got them went to NGC for grading.

And while it was mentioned that NGC did not allow fly-ins, there are several postings on eBay showing NGC labels from all 4 mint venues....PA, DC, CO and ANA...all saying first day inaugural release or something to that effect. So it's obvious that while they may have required a receipt, dealers were FedExing coins to them at the show from the other venues for the show label. So does that make them as bad as PCGS as was stated?

I think the whole situation at the ANA show was disasterous, ridiculous, stupid and reflects badly on the ANA. True, they were only responsible for security but if they truly knew in advance that dealers were busing in hundreds of people to stand in line circumventing collectors from getting the gold Kennedy, they are as much to blame as the US Mint. And if they knew by Monday that they had a problem brewing and they apparently did nothing to stop or prevent it, that's just as bad.

I for one wish that the US Mint would no longer do these kind of issues at the shows. Yes, I might make a few bucks on my clads from eBay, but I am also not gouging people with exceedingly high buy it now prices. And what I make certainly won't cover the cost of going to the show. But my primary purpose for going in the first place was to make as many contacts for buying certain products wholesale for my new business to keep me somewhat busy in retirement. Sure, I wish I could have gotten gold Kennedys every day I was there, but am I sad I did not? Not in the least. After standing in line the first day there is no way I would sit out there overnight just to get the coin.

That's just my two cents!!!

 

Keep in mind that of the four venues doing the first day release - PHL, DEN, DC, and CHI - Chicago was the least problem. We got three full days in. In the other three venues, people were actually assaulted, and they cut off sales early on Day 2. Clearly the ANA's efforts at Chicagomont bore fruit.

 

I went saturday and talked to a few of the dealers who were left, most seemed to think it a pretty good show overall, My bro finally joined the ana, and there were lots of freebies to be had, and some nice free gratis things from the US Mint.

Just to be a bit contrarian here, but I think that the mint was trying to cater to collectors, not out of greed, but to actually give all the collectors a chance to purchase a first day of issue gold kennedy.

If greed was the main motivation the US mint sure left a lot of money on the table selling the gold kennedies for 1240, when they could have limited the whole run to say 5000 pieces and have used heritage to auction them off.

Plus I gotta give them some credit, when they saw that things were being gamed too much they called off the thing, now to my way of thinking sometimes it is harder to accept that your plans have gone awry, rather than to just let the whole fiasco run its course.

Heres what might happen, the mint may decide that it is not a winning idea to cater to the collectors, or they might find some other way other to show that they are collector friendly.

 

Wouldn't it be dumb for the Mint to just offer their stuff by mail order only? You know ...... THE WAY THEY DID IT FOR DECADES?!?! You sent in your order with payment and waited. The coin collecting hobby didn't die from it. In fact, if I remember correctly, it was the hobby's golden age. Having a coin worth slabbing (now in the future) meant having gotten a particularly nice piece at random. What a concept!