Morgan die clash, VAM????

I picked up an 1881O dollar and am trying to attribute it. The only really strong marker is a heavy die clash behind Liberty's head (pics below). I checked all of the clash VAMs but none matched. There is one similar clash, but the reverse die was rotated a bit, so that clash does not extend in Liberty's cap. There is a slight wing clash (pretty typical looking) coming out of her neck, but nothing spectacular. Anyway if anyone can offer any insights, I'd appreciate it.

 

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The clash at the back of her cap is a typical one that is usually not attributed. The same goes for the clash at her neck. You will need to look for other markers on the coin to attribute it.

Chris

 

Thanks. I figured something that obvious would be a useful marker. I'll dig deeper.

 

heres a link to vam world http://www.vamworld.com/1881-O+VAMs and yes, clashes do count on vams

 

Yeah, I've been through that site several times. That's how I ended up asking for info from more knowledgeable folks. There have been several times when I have found what I would think would be obvious die markers, but find that they are not listed among the VAMs. I assumed that they were among the ones that did not have pictures with them. Thanks for your suggestion.

 

Clashes, other than letter transfers, are not the BASIS for atttribution because they are so common. They might be used to determine die state, but that's about it.

Chris

 

I agree, but some vams they most be there, to be the vam

 

OK, so they would be mentioned as supporting evidence? As I noted above, the clash I saw was different from another, similar clash, hence I was able to reject the other coin from consideration. So, in the absence of other markers, does it just go down as VAM 1?

 

maybe, I have heard of early die state, even had some grade with so

 

Going through some of the VAM listings at VW can sometimes be very exasperating. Just because a clash appears to be different doesn't mean it's not the same die pair. A clash can be partially or totally re-polished at the Mint. You also have to remember that a clash occurs on cold steel and can tend to fade from continued striking.

Suppose that you have a VAM attributed for a DDO in an early die state (EDS). Let's say that it was assigned VAM-2. Then, in a mid-die state (MDS), the dies clashed creating a letter transfer, and it was assigned VAM-2A. Later on, the clash was polished out by the Mint and a late die state (LDS) shows no evidence of the letter transfer. The LDS specimen would then revert to VAM-2 even though other portions of the clash (neckline, wing, cap vee, leaves, etc.) still remain visible.

Chris

 

Did you try searching for "1881-O VAM x" on vamworld.com? (replace x with the VAM no. you're suspecting). I found useful posts from other collectors in the past when I was in doubt. Sometimes with better pictures.

 

Would it be safe though to assume that the clash doesn't move, just get weaker with time (if at all). I compared mine (above) to 1881-O 33B and the clashes, while similar, are not in the same spot. On mine, the ends of the leaves on the clash extend into Liberty's cap. On the 33B the leaves end at the cap. I can't imagine anything other than a second clash causing a marker to be in a different place.

 

Yeah, I've tried that many times in the past (including Googling the VAM# to search the whole web). Unfortunately, in this case, I don't have any candidates on which to base a search. I thought maybe one of the more experienced collectors might give me a starting place. This one might have go down as un-attributed. But, I still have about an 80% success rate.

 

It's hard to say without seeing the coin. You have the advantage in that you can look at all parts of the coin while comparing it to the VW listings. FWIW, I'd be surprised if the clash on your coin extended into the cap since that area is a recessed part of the die.

Chris

 

I may chosen poor terminology. The clash does not show on the cap per se, but rather ends at the cap, and it appears as though it extends into the cap (or maybe more accurately, under the cap). If you look at my original pictures, you can see that the ends of the leaves are cut off at the cap, whereas on the 33B, you can see the pointed ends of the leaves. Sorry for the confusion.

 

This is probably where you are getting confused. In the listing, note that LVA states that the photos are for the SECOND clash and it is the stronger of the two. If you look at the full-coin reverse photo, you can see remnants of the first "cap vee" clash just above the second "cap vee" clash, and this should account for the apparent discrepancy in the position of the leaf clash. The coin you have is probably an earlier die state. Does yours have any of the letter transfers?

Chris

 

I don't think there are any letters, but I will look closer when I get home. But I'm pretty sure I found no evidence of a clash on the reverse. How can I access LVAs

 

send it to vam world, 5 bucks can get the job done, maybe, new vam

 

The letter clashes would be on the obverse. "In" just below the neck clash and "st" below the hair vee to the right and above the date. In all likelihood, they won't be present since Leroy stated that the second clash was the stronger of the two.

Leroy Van Allen (LVA) is the co-author of the "VAM Bible" and it is he who authenticates all VAM's.

Chris

 

I think he'd be wasting his time and money.

However, I think what might help him a lot would be the die clash tool invented by Terry Forfa. It enables you to visualize where clashed elements are located, whether it be obverse or reverse, and it also has a handy rotation guide in increments of 2.4 degrees.

http://www.vamworld.com/clashed+dies

Chris