With more and more collectors switching from collecting coins to collecting labels and slabs, I wonder when this becomes a problem. Someone could buy an authentic HOF Commem, and put it in a PCGS or NGC slab with a fake first day label. I know there are other labels that people go nuts for as well, I wonder if its going on now, or when it will start. If I were China, I would be fed up with a billion people walking around on me every day, but I would also look to exploit these label collectors. Peace out.
In my opinion, this is a more dangerous area than an entirely counterfeit product. Many likely are not aware, but perhaps a few years ago a gem 1932-D was on the market that was actually a P-mint obverse planed down and mated with a D-mint reverse similarly planed down and then fitted into a gasket and placed into a holder. The piece was purchased by an advanced WQ collector who eventually sent it to PCGS where it was fully discovered. Some of the above details might be incorrect as I am going by memory, but I believe the above is largely correct. No doubt someone could look up the specifics on the PCGS boards so that what I wrote might be corrected, if needed.
How hard would it be to take a MS65 coin and put it in a MS66 slab? Most people probably wouldnt notice.
In my opinion, the third party graders had better step up their game or they will lose the confidence of the market. I, for one, have no faith in the current system and will not pay any more for a slabbed coin than I would for a raw coin. RFID chips with unique signatures would go a long way toward eliminating fakes. The TPGs could then offer an app that would read the chips. If they are set so the reader must be within inches of the holder, at least in those cases where the person has the slab in hand, they could be relatively confident of the real thing.
quarter-back, your idea is similar to mine (posted yesterday in another thread) which involves a hidden slab number, and confirmation of location, etc. I didn't actually use the term RFID. My idea was for slab security, not coin authentication: "...This is precisely why I floated the idea of a slab reader as a smartphone app. In a new variation, the TPG could associate an embedded second number with each slab, not printed on the slab. Here is the sequence: 1. You (the Buyer) and the Seller are in Minneapolis, dealing face-to-face. 2. The Buyer uses his app to read the Seller’s slab. 3. The Buyer punches in his app’s account number and password (yes, Chinese hackers may have stolen the account number and password, but it doesn’t matter). 4. The TPG software then displays an automated 1-time-use toll-free number. 5. The Buyer calls this number and enters the second slab number plus his GPS. 6. The TPG system then confirms the second slab number, against the coin’s description AND the visible number on the slab. But it sends that confirmation ONLY to a phone located at the GPS just entered seconds before (which the Chinese will not know). No confirmation = the slab is a fake. 7. The TPG’s 1-time use toll-free number will never work again. To re-submit, even 2 minutes later, you start over. Note this system does not confirm the COIN is genuine. I am not a programmer or security specialist, so if I have left out a critical step, or written ambiguous instructions, post that fact in this thread. The app may be free, but the Buyer may be charged each time he uses the service package provided by the TPG..." You are welcome to improve upon my proposal and post the results:
Until the counterfeiters start attending auctions with a reader equipped to read and record the signals from the RFID chips. Go through lot viewing recording the chips and then make fake slabs with chips programmed to broadcast the same signals. The chip reader apps then show them as real. Doug Where does the buyer get this second number that isn't on the slab? From the seller? Does the seller now have to keep records of all his slabs and the "secret number for each of them? What happens if someone loses this secret number? The slab can't be sold until it is sent back to the TPG for confirmation and a new secret number issued (with a fee for the service of course)? And of course having to look up the secret number everytime someone wants to look at a coin is going to get annoying, so we'll just make up stickers and put the secret numbers on the slabs to save time. there goes that security feature. not to mention all this scanning, getting numbers making phone calls and waiting to be called back is going to get extremely annoying very quickly. So people start buying without all the calling and guess what the secret numbers start getting lost even faster. Sorry Doug I just don't think it is practical.
If they just automatically photographed every coin in the slab, even a cheap iPhone quality photo, a LOT of problems would go away,
They do now, and they are usually better than a cheap Iphone picture. But they aren't good enough to make a lot of problems go away. Some sure, but there could do a lot better.
RFID is a great technology, however smartphones can't read RFID tags but require an external reader, what makes it more complicated. That sounds like an option for professional dealers but it may be too much effort for the average collector. Let's not forget that introducing 'RFID slabs' will likely increase the grading fees. I agree though, for really expensive coins it would be beneficial to have such a system. With regards to the original question, yes, that sounds like a scenario where most collectors could be easily fooled. Especially for high MS grades, how many people can tell the difference btw 66 & 67? I don't think I could as the MS coins in my collection stop at 65 LOL
Where does the buyer get this second number that isn't on the slab? >>>>> His app detects it. Now someone above pointed out that apps don't read RFID, but there's bound to be another way. If a cheap device can read credit card numbers, it can read a number embedded in a slab in some way. What happens when they run out of phone numbers? >>>>> It's a digital KEY that unlocks one of a set of phone numbers, used over and over; the key only works once. ================== Time to repeat that I am not a security guy, nor are most of us here. But if you lock ten programmers and analysts in a room with nothing but lukewarm root beer and a sack of Arby's (hold the sauce), they'll have a solution by dinnertime.
I agree more security needs to be implemented. It always does, but especially now where a plastic slab and a label (in other words no digital security) are just to primitive and easy for scammers to get around. At the same time, if I were someone with a large collection I would be concerned for its value . What will happen to the value of a large collection in plastic slabs when no one wants to buy the "old slab"? Being that I'm a newer collector, I'm definitely in favor of anti-fraud measures. However, I can see some older and more established collectors not wanting too much change. I really don't know what course of action would be best... I'm just postulating scenarios.
