Grading Kennedy's...for Grade and/or Cameo

Well let me start by saying I have two copies of ANA Grading Standards and a new Making the Grade book. I have struggled with this. It is not that I do not know the difference between a VG, VF, EF, AU, and MS. That part is easy, but in most cases the MS60/PR60 -- MS70/PR70 is where it gets tricky. These are just plain hard to grade. I mean years like the 84 are weak strikes as are the 83's. I have found 89's that are awesome.

So reading the ANA and 1 or 2 bag marks etc cost a grade. So I look at my coin with the naked eye and start at 70, count the dings, and work backwards etc. This doesn't seem to realistic to me.

Here is an example:



I thought this was a MS64 at least, but posting on another board I learned real quick that is was not..


Pictures can sometimes tell all, so here is the same coin with a different picture,



Notice the scratches are all over it, lucky to get a MS62. So I bought some slabbed ones both MS and PR of different grades etc. I have a 98D in MS67, I have proof 64's in PR67 & PR68.


The problem is I can not tell the difference between the 67 & 68. I know this is a acquired skill and I have bought what material I can but I need more resources to grade these.. Links or descriptions or something of that nature.

Here is a few examples that I would like to get a good estimate of grade on, I am sure they are all Cameo some maybe even DCAM:

First a 64 Proof, that happens to have a DDO error,



And a close up,



My guess is around a PR66/67. No dings to speak of so how to I count what I do see. Do hairlines only count at 4X or what about 10X.


Next up is my Accented Hair that appeared in another thread. It is Cameo, of that I am sure with a small possibility of getting DCAM and I will explain that one later in the thread.



And a close up or two..





I sure hope it can make PR67 but it looks like it will go PR66 as there is a ding on the neck and some milk stain on the reverse. I am not sure how much they count but that was the prevailing opinion on another board.


So I use these proofs and I have a few slabbed, some even in DCAM from 68-70 to gauge what I have as far as cameo etc. I can see imperfections on the slabbed ones also, even the 1969 - PR69 DCAM. I just have a hard time telling once you get to MS/PR65 and up, what differentiates the grade at that point?

So, we move to non proofs but yet better then MS. I am talking the SMS sets. These are the hardest to get in Cameo and to grade is even harder as they all have bag marks to some degree. I recently purchased a half that is not slabbed but the guy I bought it off of 'knows' cameo's and knows the slabbing game. I had bought a few smaller ones to get an idea and I grew to trust him and his judgement. I sent him on a mission to find me a 1965 DCAM obverse but with a CAM reverse. Why you ask? I could not afford the whole package. Well it took three weeks but he found it. What I was told is SP67 CAMEO STAR from NGC is what it should slab at. I look at this 65 and the frost blows me away on any other 65 I have bar none. It is just spectacular!



And a close up,



Now the pictures do not do justice to the Cameo on this one, you will just have to believe me. The back is not near as good as the obverse for sure but it is Cameo. This is a stunner and exactly what I wanted. Just how to I grade it? I know it is better than SP65, but SP66 or SP67? I just do not know for sure. I do know however now that I have this in hand. I went back through some of my other items and pulled the best of the best and I found a 67 that is even better on Obverse and Reverse. It is a DCAM for sure I think and the grade? Well I sure hope it will get a SP67 as it has very few marks and the eye appeal is awesome. Both of these SMS coins look like proofs, which is why I wanted them. Here is the 67,



And closer,





So there is my question in a sense. I have slabbed SP66 CAM's and these are as good if not better to my eye but I might be biased. I have slabbed 64 proofs in PR65/66 CAM and my 64's are close. I have a slabbed AH in PR67 and I think the one above is as good if not better yet it is Cameo for sure.

Does anyone have any links to specific information on grading Kennedy's especially in mint or proof state? Is there a resource out there to help with these types? I have a few and in the higher grades I can not just look for obvious signs.

What are your opinions on this?

Thanks for reading...

 

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I spent a year collecting Kennedy half dollars, raw and slabbed, and came to the conclusion that each coin had to be assessed on an issue by issue basis. You have a series which includes a number of different metal compositions and finishes, and changes stemming from the evolution of minting technology over the course of fifty years. Grading the series involves a large number of variables.

I eventually gave up on the MS and PR point system because I found it was rife with inconsistencies, at least among the PCGS-graded coins I collected. In fact, collecting these coins is what spurred me to largely reject any sort of value to grades issued by TPG's.

 

I tend to agree with you on the TPG's. I ran into some NGC 1964 Business strikes this weekend and I asked about the price and I bought them. I got 3 MS64's for $10 each, and 1 MS63 for $9, and 1 AU-58 for $8. I think I did ok as I want to use them to grade what I have from many years ago but it is all subjective once you pass MS65 which is my struggle.

Thanks for the reply...

 

Let me give you an example.

In the early 70's, the mint was struggling with the technology to properly strike up copper-nickel clad coins. It was a new medium. In addition to that, the presses in Philadelphia were weaker than those of Denver, so in general, 1971D coins are better struck than 71P's. So you might find a weakly-struck 71P in holder that says MS64, to pick a random grade. That coin will have weak features, with considerable planchet chatter at the edges, but decent luster.

Now fast-forward to the 80's, wherein the striking technology is improved, so you have a coin with strong devices and equally strong luster. But let's throw in the variable of contact marks. Suppose this coin got jostled around a bit, and a grader thought, "nice coin...could be a 66, but the bag marks pull it down to 64."

Now you have the mystified collector looking at two coins, scratching his head. Each are graded at 64 but look very different.

 

That is a very good example. I see 10X the 71D's in MS65 that I do 71P's, same for 72's, 73's and 74's. My idea of getting slabs for comparing has not worked out as planned.

 

I don't regret all the PCGS Kennedy slabs I bought at all - at one point I had about thirty in a registry set, spanning their whole history. It was a great way to learn about the series, which is one of the richest and most varied in US mint history.

But when it comes to grading, you're really talking about a bunch of different coins that happen to share similar devices. The 64 circulation strikes can't be compared to the 60% silver clad issues, which can't be compared to the early copper-nickel clad issues, which can't be compared to the later cu-ni clad issues, which can't be compared to low-relief issues of the 90's, which can't be compared to the current SP collector issues.

Then you've got all the proofs, which also have to be considered on a year-to-year basis as the technology improves and you get stronger and stronger cameos over the decades, and none of those can be compared to the SMS issues of the 60's. Throw in the bicentennial reverse for an additional type, and what you've got is not just a case of apples and oranges, but apples, oranges, grapes, bananas, kiwi, watermelon, cantaloupe, etc., etc.

When it came to comparing MS and PR coins, I found for myself, that three states sufficed: low, middle, and high. Trying to discern the difference between a 65 and 66 was too tedious for my collecting tastes, and anyway, I preferred my coins raw.

AND...I found so many coins graded PR69 or PR70 that could have gone one way or another, that I altogether stopped paying high premiums for coins graded 70.

 

I should add that your coins are obviously not graded by PCGS - those are just homemade slabs that somebody put a grade on. That's not a criticism - if you send your coins to PCGS, you get exactly the same thing for a lot more money: one person's opinion of the grade.

 

I don't agree with any of your grades, nor are your opinions reflective of the Kennedy Half market. I own the entire set in Dansco, and many slabbed better dates, and think that your grading and self-slabbing is wildly inaccurate. You are under grading coins and overgrading others wildly. The pictures you have taken do not reflect any information from which to grade--they are blurry, imprecise, and are poor exposures. I don't consider this a Kennedy learning thread. Take better pictures before you use them as illustrative examples.

 

Yes these are my slabs that I put them in. I don't see the advantage of getting TPG grades as I am not selling them.

 

Ok I can see your position. My grades are my opinions and I understand that. I come to these grades by using TPG slabs to compare with. I also have sets in Whitman folders that I have pulled from roll hunting, I have 6 of them now and most are all Au/Bu coins. When I find one better, the other is tossed out. The self slabbing is for my purpose and preservation of the coins. I did have them in 2x2's but these are the better ones and go in a different box.

Under-grading! Wow that is a sure surprise as I can see me over-grading but not under. Which one is under?

Ah the pictures, yeah I know and I just have to get better at taking them. I have found that getting the cameo right in a picture is darn near impossible with my cameras, but I still try.

If you understood what I was asking in this thread is that I am asking for help, not educating anyone as I am learning, hence the reason for this thread.

 

I see an advantage, as your grades are all over the place. You need to learn to grade Kennedys appropriately, given not only ANA standards, but the market standards. I don't see one coin accurately graded that you've posted. I disagree with Doug's constant condemnation of the TPGs in terms of grading standards, and learning to grade from them. They're the market nowadays, not raw coins. Doug insists on his standards being accurate, and most of us think him to be 2 and sometimes 3 grades lower than established standards, not only ANA, but MARKET value.

Ethan, if you want help, first take better pictures. You need accurate pictures for others to be able to see the coin as it really is--or at least as close to reality (the only absolute reality is in hand). What kind of a camera are you using? Moreover, obverse only photos are useless, as a coin grades by both sides of the coin. The weaker side determines grade.

I have no trouble taking pictures of coins. You need a quality camera, and a good light source. Out of focus photos are a function of not locking in the autofocus--that is pretty simple to correct. You need a nice, surround lighting that illuminates the coin evenly, and an appropriate distance from the coin to be able to get a good photograph. A camera with good macro function is a huge help.

 

Doug, most people disagree with you. Just because you are more harsh doesn't make you right. Moreover, if standards have changed as much as you say they have (I disagree that they have), it doesn't matter, as the established market standard is what rules the hobby, not someone's opinion. It controls price, marketability, and value , especially in arms length, unseen transactions, that are more the rule than the exception nowadays.

 

Thank you, that is good information and basically makes sense as to why I just do not get it so to speak.

 

I know I need to learn, and that is exactly what I am trying to do. So if my grades are all wrong then I assume that the are too high. The 65, I was told the grade by someone I trust, even if wrong it would be a Sp66.

A Nikon that I bought for around $150 a year ago. When I get home I will post the model if needed. I did not post reverses as I am trying one side first. I realize the grade counts for both sides but lets be honest, the obverse will count more towards a grade. Plus on the Kennedy's the reverse is usually better anyway as long as the eagles wings are ok.

Well I have a macro function and I can NOT disable the auto focus as I have tried. I guess I need to get a new one and I just might. At times it takes great ones but it is a crap shoot. This one turned out very well.

 

That is far better, but it still has a reflection off of the fields. You need to turn off the flash, and have good surround lighting. DO NOT turn off the autofocus--just focus lock on the details of the coin, and adjust focal distance.

 

No flash with that shot....Its an auto camera, can't manually do crap with it.

 

Get a decent pocket camera. The Canon SX280 is great for a pocket camera, with lots of features and is inexpensive. It has fabulous image quality for a small pocket, and is a powerhouse for its price. I use Leicas primarily, and a high end Lumix mirror less, and a Canon DSLR, but you don't need that level of equipment---the Canon is terrific for that purpose, and is about $200 now, as they have a new model.