Do high grade Ike dollars have long term potential?

Quite honestly the opposite. I don't disagree that the series is ugly. In fact I don't consider them very pretty either as far as their designs go.

However I disagree with his assertion to not collect the series just because he thinks it ugly, and does not provide any reasoning beyond that as to why that would cause the series to improve or decline in value.

Just because a series is not ugly and is popular does not guarantee appreciation in value. Tell me how well that's working out for the state quarters. They're infinitely more popular than Ike's but that popularity seems to not be doing much for their appreciation.

Please do not take this as a slight towards you. I know you like ancients. I personally do not. This is a matter of our own personal opinions and tastes.

However I do respect that those types of coins may have inherent reasons for appreciating or depreciating in cost, completely unrelated to what i think of them personally. I would inform myself of those other reasons and thus be able to better debate on it. This is the issue I have with that poster, because he is using his own opinion and taste as his sole reasoning to an answer which I believe goes significantly deeper into facts than that.

 

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Not unfair. My own position would be this poster thought they do not have long term potential due to the design. There are many, many other things that can come into it IMHO, and I would never say a series has no potential because of the design, but I still do not consider it an "uninformed" opinion. Maybe I was reading too much into his opinion. If his opinion was "I beleive they are ugly so they cannot go up in value", ok, then I agree that is an uninformed opinion. If it is instead, "I believe the design will continue to drive collectors away from this series, so I do not believe they will appreciate substantially value", then I would consider this an informed opinion. It is not the same as yours, it may not be the same as mine, but I would consider it a valid opinion.

So, maybe I just read his response differently than you.

 

it is ignorant to claim that my opinion is uninformed because it differs with your own. i would reason my numismatic knowledge is a few orders of magnitude more in depth than yours, as is my collection. to prove my claim of opinionated ignorance, i shall pair it with facts. the ike dollars have one of the lowest numismatic followings of all coins, let alone of the large dollars. second, it's PM content is less than any of the other "big silver" dollars. so in response to the OPs question, NO, based off of existing numbers and trends, there are MANY wiser investment choices.

so, you know, youre wrong and stuff.

 

Historically...you are correct, this set has had a low following. It is also a clad series...so PM wise it is worthless. However, over the last several years...it has started to grow in popularity in part because of the many varieties that are being found. I agree...the popularity is still low, but the set has a ton to offer. It has rare high grade circulation issues, a wide array of collector only issues, tons of newly discovered varieties and a really interesting story. High grade MS examples of circulation coins are selling for very high prices. I think long term, this set is going to take off. I see it becoming more and more popular in the years to come. It will never be the Morgan or the Peace Dollar...but recently history makes me think an upward trend is coming.

I would argue that collectible coins in general are a fools investment.

 

I disagree. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and peoples' tastes change. What anyone thinks today has no bearing on what people believe in a hundred years. It really doesn't even have much effect on what people think next week because even individual opinion can change.

I consider the Morgan design the ugliest thing ever struck in metal but I once collected them. My first collection was the buffalo nickel which I consider not so much beautiful (it is) but iconic. The Ike certainly has some of this "iconic" and the reverse is beautiful. I doubt Ike could appear on om a very beautiful coin because Ike's appearance is not condusive to beautiful artwork. He wasn't so much unattractive as just not being consistent with metallic beauty. I'd guess it's the metal (clad) that is the biggest turn-off to most of its detractors.

All over the world these unloved base metal moderns are exploding in price. It's simply being found that they can be extremely rare because they were unloved. Sure, Ikes are mostly common in lower grades but the only reason nice examples and scarcer issues command such a small premium is that very few people collect them. It's not so much Ike is ugly as it is Ike is ugly on copper nickel. It's not so much Ike is ugly on copper nickel as it is the common perception.

Perhaps modern US will never get the attention it deserves. But the fact is this just allows people to put together great collections from dealer stock or from circulation at very low prices.

 

Here's the deal.

Check out some of the CnClad Type 1 and Type 2 blanks (unstruck) that are available.
(NOTE: A Type 1 Blank has no rims whereas a Type 2 Blank has rims and is called a planchet.)

Look for the annealing chatter on the above blanks. Annealing chatter is what occurs when the blanks are tumbled through the annealing ovens. (annealing softens the metal for striking.)

When blanks are struck, the metal flow which occurs should wipeout the annealing chatter producing a relatively mark free coin, However, once the coin gets dumped into a storage bag, it could pickup more marks and blemishes.

The above is true for ALL coins.

Now, Nickel is extremely hard compared to silver. As such, nickel and copper-nickel coins are more likely to have annealing chatter simply because the coining presses have to use MORE pressure to cause the metal to flow into the recesses of the die(s). Additionally, the larger the planchet (blank) the more pressure is needed to produce the image needed.

When the first low relief CnClad IKE's were struck, the mint struggled with balancing minting pressure, which causes die failure, with the minting of coins with acceptable quality. It was immediately apparent that the CnClad planchets required MORE pressure in order to create an acceptable product over a coin of equal size but in a softer metal (silver). The addition of the pressure caused die sink and die failure so, the pressure would get dialed down.

The end result was the production of coins which had loads and loads of annealing chatter, especially noticeable in the fields near the rims which made the coins appear like they had bag marks. Grading IKE's requires the ability of recognizing the difference between annealing chatter and actual bag mark damage since "annealing chatter" is as struck while bag mark damage is post strike and considered damage.

Even though deep annealing marks lessen eye appeal, a coin can be graded around them.

So much for that.

With the CnClad IKE's, annealing chatter can keep the coin out of MS65 simply because, even though it is as struck, it also loses its eye appeal which is always considered when grading coins. Therefore, with the CnClad IKE's, MS65 can be a tough grade to achieve.

The real money starts at the MS66 Level and the Line of Credit purchases begin at MS67 for CnClad coins.

Below is an example of annealing chatter which was not struck out of the coin.


The above 1973-S Silver Business Strike was done on a thinner planchet and as such, did not receive the full pressure of the strike. Notice the marks between the 7 and 3 and along the edges? Typically, these would get struck out of the coin.

The CnClad coins have a lot more unstruck annealing chatter simply because the planchets were large and the metal was very hard. Philadelphia produced a LOT of ugly coins in the first years which is why a 1971 MS66 IKE can cost you thousands.

As for the silver coins of the early years, I've heard that the 1971-S Silver Business Strikes were loaded into 1,000 coin bags for shipping to the packager. Noting the damage caused to these low relief coins, the process was changed in subsequent years to ship the coins in TUBEs. The net result is that an 1971-S MS67 40% Silver Business Strike will cost you hundreds whereas an MS67 for 72,73,74,76 will only cost you about $40 if even that.

As for the OP's coin, the only downside is that its in an NGC Slab and the $13.45 which was paid might be difficult to recoup simply because its in NGC Plastic.
This is not an NGC Bash, its simply a fact. MGC Graded CnClad IKE's cost less then PCGS Graded IKEs.

On the plus side, the set will be easier to assemble in NGC Plastic.

 

Never a dispute that the opinion itself was valid or not - someone's opinion is always valid, it's an opinion. I agree, if the post was more in-depth and contained what you have said, chances are it would have received a rebuttal because I have a differing opinion, but I probably would not have placed that label on it, since there would have been at least something more substantial to it.

 

Great! Something more substantial that can be debated Where to begin...

As stated, I do not dispute your actual opinion, you're entitled to it, and I'm entitled to agree or disagree. And, it does not really differ from mine, and I have stated as much. I'm simply arguing that nothing more than your opinion was used as a statement of fact, which is the definition of uniformed.

Ahh yes, since you obviously know me very well, and know what my collection entails, and are sure that yours is bigger. Because, size, after all, is the end game and the obvious measure of knowledge and ability.

And this data is culled from where? I do not have numbers on this, so please cite your source. I do not necessarily debate this isn't true, but I would not state so unless there's clear evidence. Or, I would preface the statement with "it's my belief that..."

And, further, size of following has what to do with it? The following of the 1913 Liberty Head Nickel is far smaller I assume, since there were only 5 known to be made. Yet it is one of the most valuable coins in the world, and it's value seems to be appreciating just fine at the moment.

The point is that even though there may be less interested parties, there are other aspects that help make up value such as rarity, history, etc. Valid reasoning cannot be one-legged.

Well, yes, I finally find an actual fact I agree with. Considering this is apples to oranges however, it's not really a valid argument. Considering there are only 8 coins out of 40 in the series which have any silver content at all, the tying of value of this entire series to PM content is illogical, and I believe incorrect.

Extending your logic then, the only coins which will ever appreciate are basically the graded bullion? Unless they're full of PM, there's no way it will appreciate in value? I guess I should sell everything I have and buy slabbed silver and gold.

I don't see how this answers the OPs question. He never asked for what would be a better investment choice. He asked whether the Ike series itself would appreciate in value over time.

If you want a better investment choice, head on over to the stock market. Coins are a horrible investment choice.

Yes, thank you for such a well rounded debate, I feel so defeated at the moment.

 

I unfortunately agree with rysher. All coins go up in value over time because there are a finite number of them, limiting supply. I would reason that the Ike Dollars have gone up less in relation to most other coins. The comments made about the high grade ones being worth more is kind of silly, doesn't that hold true for all coins?

 

I think you are correct when you are talking about "Ike Dollars" in general, but that isn't what the OP is asking about. The OP is asking about high grade Ike Dollars...of which there is a VERY finite supply. Because of production issues, these coins didn't come from the mint in high grade typically. The gem examples, which is where the value is, are quite limited in their supply.

While it is true that most coins go up in value with grade...this is especially true of circulation strike Ike's because of the production issues they had.

 

Do high grade Ike dollars have long term potential?
In my opinion, yes but only in MS-66 and higher grades.
Tough coins to find in those grades.

 

It depends on the length of time "one day" describes. 10 years, 50 years, 100 years etc... If they do away with physical coinage as some predict, many coins will have that chance. A hot collectable as an older coin, is a much more desirable piece (IMHO) than another coin with similar conditions.

 

I would be surprised to see a large increase in Ike popularity in the next 10 years. It will never be the Morgan Dollar...but I think it will be much more collected in the next decade.

 

Well, since the thread as dissolved into collecting "opinions", I am of the opinion that anybody who collects coins based solely upon their metallic content is cheating themselves out of the appreciation of the coiners art and high grade collectible coins.

The CnClad series of coins has some fairly awesome looking coins, some fairly awesome varieties, some fairly awesome errors and some fairly awsome yet affordable prices.

I am also of the opinion that folks were drawn into collecting Morgan Dollars simply because of the Silver content as the truth of the matter is, the Morgan Dollar never really circulated except in Casino Towns. The Casino owners of yesteryear made some quite impressive Silver Dollar Displays and since the coin didn't circulate, there are literally millions of them available for the right price.

Yes, there are Millions of IKE Dollars around, some still in mint sealed bags but those bags do not always guarantee ANY MS66 coins. As such, once a "dollar" coin replaces the "paper bill", I think interest in coin collecting will increase since there are literally billions out there to choose from. That choice will be from what new collectors can get at the bank which unfortunately will NOT be Morgan or Peace Dollars.

Is there potential? Sure but the ducks gotta get lined up just right and there are folks out there working on that very situation with their research.

 

I don't think there's much doubt that Ikes are very very "undercollected".

Consider that Morgans which can have thousands graded in MS-67 can have a higher price than some Ikes that have dozens graded in MS-66.

When you get down to it this "undercollecting" applies to virtually all moderns. Perhaps it will never change but if it did people would consider the change perfectly "natural". Why shouldn't current coins have a widespread hobby base and this especially applies as states quarter collectors filter back into the hobby over the next twenty years.

 

Sorry, but I do not see how comparing something to one of the most popular coins in the world helps anything. I have coins less than a couple dozen exist, let alone are MS66, and this fact is meaningless as to value.

Demand is needed, specifically demand for very high end examples. What you say about many modern series is very true, but again meaningless. It has no bearing on whether the series will ever become popular.

Morgans in many ways became popular BECAUSE the huge MS population. If you say IKE's do not have that, its another strike against them.

Popularity is extremely complicated. Most of the time rare coins are not popular simply because there are enough to go around.

 

This is true...but the sales prices reflect the demand. These coins command a healthy premium.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1971-D-EISE...33?pt=Coins_US_Individual&hash=item5d497fae79

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1977-EISENH...49?pt=Coins_US_Individual&hash=item5d4890e605

 

It's ungraded but BU. Not sure if it's blue or brown as it came loose. I think I gave $13 or so for it, so I paid what it is worth.

 

The BU silvers are from the blue packages...the silver proofs are the brown. So, since it's a silver BU...it's a "blue Ike."

 

I really appreciate everyone's insight on my question. I never would have thought that my posting would have generated so much heated discussion.

I definitely don't expect to get rich collecting coins. However, one of the joys of collecting, at least for me, is owning coins that are genuinely scarce and in demand, and it's always nice to see my coins increase in value even if I may never sell them. There are lots of coins that are valuable now that we wish we could go back in time and stock up on. Wouldn't it be nice to go back to 1983 and buy a mint sewn bag of quarters? Back in 1998 I bought a Russian mint set at a Moscow flea market for about $15. These coins have no precious metal content and their face value was already worthless when I bought them due to hyperinflation. However, they aren't "junk" or "worthless" anymore because that set is selling for around $400 on Ebay. Who would have thought that the Russian coin market would skyrocket due to a massive increase in ordinary Russians' standard of living? Economics is always full of surprises and supply and demand can come together in ways we least expect.

Even if Ike dollars never take off it's still fun to speculate a little bit. Regardless of whether the design is ugly, it is the only circulation coin that celebrates our accomplishment of landing on the moon, so maybe sometime it will cease to be "modern" and become a classic. (I guess the Susan B's have the lunar reverse as well but those really are ugly...)