Counterfeits: I was a tattle-tale at the coin show today.

Today at my local coin show I asked to see a dealer's 2 type coins that were sitting on his bullion coins. One was a 1798 large cent that said XF on the holder. The second was an 1868-S XF seated quarter (key date). The large cent under a loupe was evenly porous but the bust design was flat out different than a true draped bust cent. The facial features were different, Ms. LIBERTY'S head and bust were slightly smaller than it should have been, and there were light, extremely even dentils all around the obverse. The quarter was a better fake. But the eagle didn't have a tongue! And the mintmark looked hand-engraved and funky... not like it should.

I told the dealer, "These look funny. The design is off."
"They're genuine," he replied. "Had em since I was a kid."

I thanked him and walked away. But it started to really bug me. Either he didn't know they were fakes or he was lying to make money. So I consulted another dealer about it that I knew personally. He told me I should tell the organizer (also a dealer). So I walked over to him, described the coins and told him which dealer it was.
His response: "I know you, John, and if you say they're fake then they probably are. But Glenn [the dealer selling the fakes] probably has no clue. Even though that story about having them since he was a kid sounds like bull___. I'll go look at them and tell him to either take them out of his case or mark the holders as counterfeits. Thanks for letting me know. We just can't allow that."

I feel like a tattle-tale. I'm not that confrontational. But I could just imagine some collector buying them for $1000+ and then finding out they'd thrown away all that cash. So that makes me feel better about it all.

 

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Tough call as he may or may not have knew they were fakes...But you saved someone from having a really bad day buying some fakes! Props.

 

You did what you had to do , and I commend you . There's too many fakes out there and they're making many buyers leery .

 

I have also been taken, but not out a great deal of cash on a 1875S Trade dollar. Was not able to weight it, or have known at that time, what to look for. You did right, and also since you knew what you were looking at. I have found real coins in slabbed, that were catalog wrong at dealer tables. I told them, and showed them the problem. Some, were not happy, and some thanks me. The dealer of the coins at your show, should have asked you how you know, and to learn from you, and then he should have asked for someone else to verify, to see if indeed you were correct. You did good, by asking the person in charge of the show,as to protect that venue.

 

the dealer knew what he had; he got what he had coming. and if he didnt know what he had, and he calls himself a dealer...pfft

 

You did the right thing. If the dealer truly did not know they were fakes he got a free lesson on them. If he did know, I hope he was told that if caught trying to sell fakes as genuine at that coin show again he would be kicked out and not allowed back.

 

I'd have done the same thing sometimes the hard desicion is the right decision is better to offend one for the protection of all

 

Yes, definitely the right move to inform the organizer. As others have said, the dealer should of known and if he truly didn't well then he should be told.

 

You absolutely did the right thing. In my experience it is better for the hobby as a whole that you did what you did then if you did nothing. If you did nothing...then you just set a new standard. And this standard, is not one that I will not follow.

MJH

 

I agree with the others that it was the right thing to do, but...........

......how many of us would be willing to point out to some dealer that they had overlooked an important attribution which made a coin very valuable?

Honestly, I don't know what I would do because I've never had it happen.

Chris

 

i can agree that sellers should not be trying to pass off fake coins as real. however, if anybody spends $1,000 or more or even a few hundred dollars on a coin, then they should be able to tell the difference. if they can't tell the difference, then it is at least in some ways their own fault.

 

GDJMSP, I concur completely. Most dealers appreciate having a counterfeit pointed out, and they are almost always keen to learn how to identify the coin as such.

But the single one thing that separates most dealers, from this one, was this line:

 

i think you are partially correct however you made a few assumptions and generalizations. allow me to clarify my oversimplified statements.

if someone makes their living by selling coins as it would appear this dealer the OP speaks of does, then it would only be fair to agree that as a dealer, he would need to know his inventory. before buying something, he needs to properly identify it. failure to do so lands him as the one to blame this far down the chain. every single hand it touched before him is equally to blame, however, he is the one holding it right now, and trying to pass it off, knowingly or not.

i never said collectors are the ones to benefit from TPGs, in fact, i feel TPGs benefit numismatics in general by adding a level of equality and safety between the professionals and the collectors.

i still stand by my statement. this dealer is the one holding a relatively expensive coin. i know that in my fields of business, if i were not to properly research an acquistion, then my entire business' reputation and financial standing is at risk. this dealer should be held to the same standard. further, i feel that even a collector has a responsibility to research a purchase. the dealers quick "had it since i was a kid" response just screams ignorance. not such a good dealer if he hasn't been able to move this particular piece in decades. or rather, has been holding a counterfeit piece "unknowingly" for decades and never figured it out.

 

Maybe he had. Based on what the show organizer said about Glenn not having a clue, it makes it wonder if Glenn is even a full time dealer. As Doug said, dealers aren't necessarily experts. Perhaps he is a part time dealer on the side who just rented a table. It's possible he had those coins since he was a kid...they had counterfeits then too. Heck, they had counterfeits when Doug was a kid...you know, when Washington rowed across the Delaware River.

I think the OP did the right thing by subtly telling the organizer...who then went and investigated. Based on the organizer's response, it is likely the dealer had no clue. Perhaps Glenn he learned something.

I know Glenn (the dealer) basically blew the OP off. I don't know the OP but I assume he is younger. My guess is this an example of an "old guy without a clue" not wanting to listen to the young "whippersnapper." It's unfortunate that some people would ignore someone a younger person said just because of age and thus a presumed lack of knowledge, but it happens all the time.

 

You are making the pretty big assumption that everyone who "makes there living" by working is an expert in their field or trade. Based on my experience, that is simply not the case.

Plus, with coins there are so many different types and varieties (just with US coins alone). I have yet to meet someone who I would consider truly and expert in any and all US coins. True, you should make a grand effort to be an expert in your field/trade...but many are not.

 

again, i am not assuming anything. i am saying that he SHOULD be expert enough to identify one of the most heavily counterfeited coins out there if he is investing his inventory in it.

 

I agree with you...they SHOULD be able to. But, the facts are the facts...many of them can't.

I also wouldn't exactly call either of these coins "one of the most heavily counterfeited coins out there."