I want to include a slabbed chop marked Trade dollar in my Liberty Seated type set and have been seeing quite a few chop marked Trade dollars certified with a numeric grade on the label rather than a details designation. A chop mark is post mint damage and yet it seems that the grading services have changed their standards in regards to that fact. I am also seeing a lot of dealers pricing their graded chop marked dollars the same as non chop marked pieces which also does not seem to be appropriate for a damaged coin. I have seen mint state graded Trade dollars priced the same or even higher than another slabbed by the same grading service of the same date / grade. Any of the professional dealers here care to explain why this is happening?
There's an ongoing debate about chopmarks being a part of the coin's history, since the Trade dollar was created to encourage overseas acceptance of U.S. trade & many were shipped around the world. So most major grading companies now acknowledge a grade and just notate "chopmark" on the holder along with the numerical grade. As far as prices being as high as unmarked examples, why wouldn't a seller market it as problem-free when it has a grade? It's all about the money, boys!
The services are getting better at knowing if the chop marks are real. That was not easy. Demand has brought the price up if it's in a good holder.
It still is post mint damage. How would they even begin to know if the chop marks on the coin was punched in it over 100 years or just last week? With so many different merchants in China putting their marks on the coins circulating there at the time who was keeping track of who used which mark?
It is damage...but it's part of the history of the piece. Chopmarks on these coins came from their use in commerce and in many ways were as natural as circulation wear. Because of that, IMHO they should still be gradable. That said, I would think that an unmarked coin would still be preferred to a marked coin. But, a seller is free to ask whatever they want for it...and a customer is free to buy it or move on. I would think that the key to authenticating the mark is not necessarily the design...but the patina. If the patina was consistent over the mark...then the mark is likely original. If it's not, then it's probably new. That's just my guess though.
Me I won't buy em to me its damage granted its part of its history and I can see how someone would collect them just like counter stamped coins but it ruins the eye appeal of a beautiful coin and I prefer to collect unmarked ones but that's only my opinion
It's damage but I'm glad the services can get past that on these. Chinese merchants used Mandarin language characters on their punches. That's one way the services judge if it's real.
Countermarks/counterstamps are also post-mint damage and yet they get numerical grades. Chopmarks are really not any different if you think about it.
That is exactly what they did. A few years ago neither NGC nor PCGS would grade chopmarked coins. But they changed their standards because people wanted them to.
I think a lot of people forget sometimes that the TPGs are for-profit businesses that cater to the desires of the clients...just like everyone else.
Yes, they are exactly the same thing as countermarks/counterstamps. What the grading services are doing now is what they should have been doing all along and I don't have a problem with that. It was just unexpected and I had to ask to confirm what I was thinking was a change in policy for chop marked Trade dollars. Thanks to all for your comments.
If anything, a real chopmark would indicate that the dollar was sent to Asia, and was graded by the Chinese merchants to have the correct weight (420 grains) for their business. The coin was made for a particular purpose and many of the coins received their marks as being used for that particular purpose.
The inclusion of a chop marked Trade dollar in my Liberty Seated type set is for that very reason. It will be a representative of why this coin was created, specifically for trade with China.
I honestly think this is a great idea. They were designed to be used in overseas commerce and these marks are indicative of their use. The only problem is...now I feel like I need to add a chopped example of my type set.
I thought that my Liberty Seated type set was pretty much set until I found Gerry Fortin's web site on the dimes. As a result of that I learned that the Red Book, where I initially selected the varieties for the set and I found that it does not include all of the major obverse and reverse varieties Gerry has identified. So now my type has evolved to include all of those not mentioned in the Red Book. When completed without any further changesand there probably will be some but, for the moment it includes: Half dimes - 7 obverse, 2 reverse varieties (Have all 9) Dimes - 9 obverse, 3 reverse varieties (Need 1 obverse) 20 cents - 1 obverse, 1 reverse (Have both) Quarters - 6 obverse, 3 reverse varieties (Have all 9) Halves - 8 obverse, 5 reverse varieties (Have 2, 1 is an 1853 for the with rays reverse, the other could be either an obverse or reverse example I haven't decided yet) Dollars - 1 obverse, 2 reverse varieties (None yet) Trade dollars, 2 obverse, 2 reverse varieties plus 1 chop marked example (Have obverse 2 and reverse 2) Total of 53 pieces. All in PCGS and NGC holders grading from AU-50 to MS-64
I don't have a US Trade Dollar with chop marks to post. However, I do have this ancient coin from Athens Greece. This coin has a plethora of test cuts and banker's marks from antiquity. A Tetradrachm is four (4) Drachms. Based upon the Attic standard in 450 B.C., a drachm weighed 4.2 grams. Therefore, a coin weighing 16.8 grams would be four Drachms or one Tetradrachm. The bankers, merchants, and money changers of the day weighed & chopped this coin repeatedly. ATTICA, Athens, AR Tetradrachm. (Owl) 440-404 B.C. 16.94 grams, 22 mm Obv: Helmeted head of Athena facing right in crested ornamented helmet Rev: Owl standing right, head facing; olive sprig & crescent to left and AΘΕ to right all in incuse square. Grade: VG with fairly good strike and a plethora of test marks and banker’s marks from antiquity. Other: Good silver. NGC grade opinion is VG with 4/5 for strike and 1/5 for surface. Private purchase 1-18-14.
