ICG v ANACS - Who's worse?

The software on this site appears to have an inability to access that survey, regardless of what logical manner is utilized. The software also appears that it will not allow an internet copy to be posted either, or a link to an informative documentary internet link.
If you want to see the apparently gross disparities between the TPG where even ACG graded coins lower than PCGS on more than one occasion, SEARCH: May 26, 2003 edition of Coin World, READ: Editorials - Beverly Hills Coin Club

 

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how does IGC afford to keep the lights on?

 

Okay, so we know what people here mostly consider #3 & 4. But what about # 5 & 6?

 

I seek out ICG slabs because they are within a grade or two and sell for multiple grades lower due to the groupthink that we can see epitomized in many threads on this subject. People act as if they are putting G4's in MS 65 holders. Does anyone complain that PCGS has mostly MS70's in their new coin pops, the coins are direct from the mint so why not. But see MS70 on a ICG slab for a brand new coin and there's just no way it's legit. Yeah right...

 

I do the same thing. I purchased multiple Statehood and Territories Silver Proof-70 Quarters at basement prices recently from ICG and they all look great!

 

I didn't guess either one of the choices given, even though it may be true in some cases, I don't think it's technically fair. I hate to be a party pooper but it really depends on the slabs in hand. You really can't think that just b/c the slab is from PCGS or NGC then all is safe & sane, it just don't work that way. Besides, if you're buying PCGS slabs on ebay and you think all is cool, then think again. PCGS & NGC have both been counterfeited and are being sold heavily on ebay, maybe as we speak. My 2 cents.

 

I have always had a problem with coins graded as 70s. This is partly because of PCGS. A number of years ago, they rarely gave out the 70 score. But, I think they have caved to market pressure (which is what companies who sell a product do) and began to issue it a little more frequently. I honestly doubt that coins issued in 2000 were of such lower quality than coins issued in 2013.

 

to what coin are you referring, Doug?

and is the percentage of high grades due to agreements not to grade coins below a set grade within a submission?

 

I don't have access to the population reports...so I was just going off of what I have seen for sale. But yes, 86% seems high to me. lol,

 

Doug, I can see 3 possible reasons for this change:

1. PCGS and NGC have continued to lower their standards across the board
2. PCGS and NGC have bowed to market pressure (consumers) and have created an achievable "70" grade
3. The minting process has improve to the point where flawless coins are much easier to produce and are being produced.

I personally think the answer is #2. While the TPGs have lowered their grading standards since their inception...I don't think we have seen a massive lowering of standards across the board since the early 2000s. I also don't think we have seen a major production quality control change from the US Mint. I believe the TPGs have caved to consumer pressure and redefined what a "perfect" coin is so that they can slab and market coins as such.

 

I think...at least for me, the reason it can be hard to see a more recent change in the grading standards is it's difficult to date the slabs unless you have the proper references. And unfortunately, those references can be hard to come by. I know that a OGH is clearly an early PCGS slab, but once they go beyond that they look a lot more similar. I know that the standards the TPGs use today are different from the standards they used in the 1980s, but I find it hard to distinguish slabs from 2000 and 2013 without good reference materials. If you can't distinguish them...it's hard to see a decrease in grading standards. This might be easy for people who are experts when it comes to the TPG...but for someone like me who cares more about the coin it can be difficult.

I do recall when PCGS basically refused to grade coins as 70s...I seem to remember at the time some thought this is why they were a better TPG than NGC, because NGC would bestow the grade. I do agree that no coin is perfect...that is why I said the TPGs "redefined what a "perfect" coin is" so they label them as 70s. To those who don't know any better, a 70 is a completely flawless (or perfect) coin.

I personally have never bought a coin with a 70 grade. The coins that typically get 70s (mostly modern commemorative coins) don't really interest me and if I were to buy a graded ASE I would buy a 69 as I can't see the difference and won't pay the 70 premium for something that I can't see.

 

I've recently seen some ASE's graded by NGC as MS-69's that weren't even close to being that high - obvious nicks and scuffs, just nowhere near that grade.

I wonder (because I don't know) if the ASE's, Pandas, et cetera, with which TPG's are inundated with nowadays are graded by personnel possessing the same expertise and experience as, say, the person evaluating an 1889-CC Morgan that's submitted. I kind of doubt it. Which leads me to agree with the previous post (as well as a few others above), in the sense that I can't see paying a premium for these very modern coins slabbed as MS-70. I simply have no confidence that they are what they purport to be.

 

Well, you're way ahead of me in the "wonder" respect. I'm still wondering why people bother to grade proof and bullion coins? What possible grading skills, abilities or expertise are really required to open up a monster box or a plastic capsule when grading bullion or proofs? The grading scope or range you're dealing with just seems so minuscule.

 

I think the TPGs have very cleverly created a market for these coins...their registries. The difference between a 69 and a 70, at least to me, is indistinguishable. I'm convinced that if I cracked out a 69 of a commonly graded 70 and submitted it it very well could come back a 70. I have heard some people say that often times the difference is a small break in the cameo frosting of a proof...but I don't know. The bottom line is, there is no eye appeal difference here. The real drive for a lot of people is getting that "highest" registry score.

 

I see. I must be at an advantage because I know nothing of such registries. I'll just stay in the dark on this one.

 

You're better off.

Basically, people join online groups held by PCGS and NGC. The companies assign a point value to each coin...the higher the grade the higher the points. The more points in your set the "better" it is. So, people spend obscene amounts of money to get one grade point higher. The TPGs have actually created a competitive motivation to drive up the prices of their highest graded coins. It's really quite clever.