10oz Gold Bar Pile

Why would you take less than melt on a documented retail item? No receipts?

 

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always a deductible chief....nothing is free

 

ya might wana start

 

I used to collect piles of gold but that side of the house started to sink.

 

Hey LostDutchman,
Do you happen to have a metals scanner? Just wondering, the really good ones cost the big dollars, but they've come down in price and you can now get one for less than $400.

http://www.olympus-ims.com/en/xrf-xrd/delta-handheld/delta-precious-metals/

 

I would dooo both

 

Ha...Ha...Ha...[Slow clap]

 

Do these things measure beyond the surface of the metal? This would be a useless device if it gave positive readings for precious metal that was only on surface but worthless metal underneath.

 

From what I here, some of these work well but others don't.

 

Holy crapola what is that the uss central America gold?

 

If I had that I'd live on the beach never work again and have prettier coins then hugh stiel!!

 

Absolutely, at least the very expensive ones do. The one I know about is at local jewelry & coin store here in town. It tells you the reading of silver or gold content and everything else the item is made of, plus it gives percentages of each alloy within the item. It's not just for gold and silver either, I'm not sure how many different metals it reads but it's one smart scanner.

 

The expensive one might read a little deeper, but none of them are going to measure more than just a very small distance into the surface.

 

Right, when the Bundesbank (German central bank) started moving parts of its gold reserve from storage facilities in New York, London and Paris, the bars were to be scrutinized. From what I have read about this, they did weight and ultrasound checks for example. But some bars were to be melted and then cast again, to make sure there's no wolfram/tungsten or iridium in there ...

Christian

 

This is what I was wondering about. Seems like XRF is useless for determining composition beyond the outer layer. I suppose ultrasound or melting are the only ways to verify the bullion is precious metal to the core. Thanks to both of you for the replies.

 

There's a guy who runs around a lot of the shows trying to sell the one pictured, or at least one that looks almost identical. Every time he demo's it for us, and I'd say it works about 60% of the time. >_<


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Junior Numismatist, Alhambra Coin Center

www.lifeatthecoinshop.com
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All I can attest to is the handheld scanner I've seen test at least 5 coins and 1 token. More accurate than acid and doesn't leave any scratches or marks. Whether they go down deep into the surface, I don't know and I don't really care. They are more accurate than acid and that's the bottom line.

 

This has been my trepidation in getting one. I have gotten to play with one of the $15k+ guns and as far as I can tell they only test the surface. The acid is far less accurate in determining actual karat... But because you do rub it on a wet stone you actually get a sub surface test.
The gun I saw in use was having a problem differentiating between 10k and 10k gold filled and the operator asked me to do an acid test to be sure...

The real x ray assay machines will sit on a large table and run about $50,000.

 

Interesting, I had no idea about the possibility of 10k filled or not incident. I know of only one shop owner who has one and he paid over $13,000 for it. Him and his wife are both jewelers and their shop is part jewelry store and part coin store. He opened his business around mid-recession when all kinds of people were selling their gold and silver. It was a really good time to get into the gold trading business for certain. I guess it would be good for some shop owners but definitely not for all.

 

I am not sure about the US - but in Canada, you need certification to operate the hand-held device shown in this thread, because you can directly expose yourself to the X-Ray beams (which is an Iridium source). I do use those hand held devices in the field, but depending on the model, beam source and detector, you can get a wild range with various elements, including erroneous platinum, molybdenum and titanium readings (peak interference in the software, that interprets the detector readings). Drop me a line if you want a published paper on this very topic. How does this relate to coins?? A dealer in Canada is try to sell "titanium alloy error two dollar coins", from mint sets that have a lighter coloured core - but after a little digging, I discovered they tested the coin on an old Russian-built XRF. Titanium alloys are used in XRF devices, to shield and protect against radiation - some of the beam was attenuated by the inside of the vessel itself, giving up to 2% titanium results (erroneous). The fight continues with said dealer...

I am lucky to have some very expensive "toys" in my lab at work, including a much more powerful XRF and semi-quantitative SEM. For anyone dealing in a lot of bullion, my advice would be to invest in a decent bench-top XRF, whereby the beam is enclosed during the testing, with a locked lid, and risk of exposure is nil. The beam source in these bench top models is more powerful and the detectors are superior. I have one of these sitting on my desk at work - perfect for lunchtime testing of coins struck on "mystery planchets" and other errors (see photo).

http://www.olympus-ims.com/en/xrf-xrd/mobile-xrf/x-5000/

For heavily clad items, or like those drilled-and-tungsten-filled gold bars, even the most powerful XRF machines can't really do much. You have to trust your precision scale, and other available tools (e.g., magnet).

/my two cents... (but since Canada got rid of the penny, and we round down/up to the nearest 5-cents, this might not add up to much!)