Trade Dollar trickery

Another area I'd point out are the dentils at 6 O:Clock . On the obverse it looks like they join together on the inside , they should be separate .

 

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Thanks for the info at a glance it looked good other than off color but your detailed photos showed me all the casting flaws and irregularities I like to be able to study any and all fakes especially trades and bust dollars as I collect both And want to educate myself on anything I need to watch out for thanks for sharing!!!

 

Just a week or two ago we've seen a new generation of Chinese fakes come through our shop. The previous ones have been so bad you could spot 'em a mile away with one eye closed; but now, suddenly they're much better. The weight is even closer, as C-B-D pointed out. With a close examination they're obvious fakes, but we've had a couple slip by our counter people when they're buying big groups and going quickly through 30 some-odd dollars. Not good!


Junior Numismatist, Alhambra Coin Center
lifeatthecoinshop.wordpress.com

 

Ouch, that's gotta hurt. My LCS is almost paranoid, they won't buy coins worth more than $200 (apiece) if they aren't slabbed. It works I guess.

 

These are all over eBay lately, from a group of about a dozen seller account which I know to be US based fronts for a Chinese distributor. No matter how many times I report them 90% of the time they are not taken down. Your example is actually worse, as many that I see do not have such defects and are more than likely struck instead of cast. I had listed a few examples here: http://www.cointalk.com/threads/187...-me-its-not-a-fake.239823/page-6#post-1834892

 

I remember that thread, and my reply, which I'll summarize here:

I don't believe many CT members are aware of the advances in counterfeit manufacturing. The Chinese have made quantum leaps in this area, and with proper alloy and laser cut dies, these coins are struck to exact specification. But what they are even better at is the artificial aging/toning of newly struck pieces, along with the ability to produce wear patterns consistent with those seen on genuine coins of that era. Of course, there are so many inferior fakes in this country that collectors have become complacent with the idea that they can easily identify same... and when listed on eBay are usually reported and pulled. The ones that remain will sell... and sell for large amounts. Many dealers would identify these as genuine.. and the sellers remain in place to unload more.

 

One thing I've noticed on all the Chinese fakes I've seen in hand is they've never quite gotten the color right they always look to me like a coin with surface tampering or cleaning they often in pics look better but there's always something in the color that immediately makes me suspicious granted I've got a rather well trained eye they always seem a bit flat and dull but could be confused with a legit coin that's been cleaned

 

Very true they are getting better and better

 

Still if you learn the series , the correct MMs for the dates and die marriages you can detect most of them . Still the better ones are getting scary and better , knowledge is still the best deterrent plus a reputable dealer and slab .

 

Here's ebays link on fake trade dollars , it shows the obvious Type I and II obverses and reverses , it also shows the Chinese what they were doing wrong so that they can correct their mistakes.
http://www.ebay.com/gds/Coin-Fake-D...000000016003602/g.html?_trksid=p2047675.m2468

 

If the hobby is to survive then people need to stop relying on looking for inconsistencies because the best counterfeits don't have them. I don't believe that high end counterfeits will kill the hobby per say, but they will most certainly hurt the value of many coin types by their sheer volume of availability. That is something that collectors that have kept coins for a while will feel the brunt of.
And high end coins are not the only target. Lately I see plenty of common, yet high grade, Morgan dollars or Mexican 8 reales or Japanese silver yen that go for $40-$50 which are counterfeited with the same level of quality as 1790's US type coins. It's $15 worth of silver, and when there are tens of thousands of them being cranked out the production cost added to the silver price is minimal.

As far as I'm concerned the counterfeiters won the battle about 2 to 4 years ago, depending on what you collect.

 

So what would you suggest we do , stop collecting TDs and other highly counterfeited coins , or just buy slabbed ? We might as well quit collecting and learning . As with high end gold fakes like the Omega fakes , these "perfect" coins will have all the same markers of the host coin , every bump and scratch will be the same so there will be ways to tell , it'll just take time .

 

Not sure if anything can be done. Just keep learning and stay up to date with known counterfeits and their characteristics.
Some would say if everything about it looks real, and experts accept it as real, then for all intensive purposes it is. I don't believe that though.
The Mexican 8 reales coins that were originally made in the late 1700's and early 1800's were remade in the US in the mid 1800's to early 1900's because they were accepted in Asia as trade dollars. There are few people that discern the later ones from the originals, the TPG's generally slab them both the same. Does that make them real? It's almost a philosophical issue at this point.

 

The actual quote from master forger Mark Hofmann (taken from Charles Larson's book "Numismatic Forgery"):

"If I can produce something so correctly, so perfect that the experts declare it to be genuine, then for all practical purposes it is genuine. There is no fraud involved when I sell it."

An excellent book by the way, but somewhat outdated by advances in technology.

 

I think he was deluding himself and trying to rationalize his fraud . I don't believe any fake how well made will be real . If it comes to that this hobby will die .

 

I can understand that let's hope it doesn't come to that I deal with a lot of the same in the antique business especially as a restorer and cabinetmaker as well I see things I worked on and often did major restorations on being sold as "all original" or original surface or paint when I did the work I found years ago the only way to be as both a dealer and restorer was to be 100% disclosing and I feel the same about coins I try to do the same when selling and prefer to buy from people that do the same if everyone deals with reputable people and if dealers do the same then we will never have to worry about the fakes taking completely over

 

I'm wondering if you have seen any of the super high end ones in fake slabs , the ones that are supposed to be right on . Sort of like the ones that are being sold on ebay right now .

 

I haven't seen the trades yet but I've seen the draped bust dollars in the fake pcgs slabs and they are good if it's not a series you actively collect is a place even a fairly experienced collector could get burned myself I'm a huge fan of the early cartwheels and trades both so I'm well versed on both there's many other series tho that I could easily make a mistake on thankfully they haven't started faking them yet (I hope)!!

 

If they can get the color dead right then were in a lot more trouble too is usually my first clue something is wrong either cleaning or other problems like a fake

 

Yeah, the closeups tell the whole story. I'm a bit surprised that a respected dealer sold that to you, maybe the guy just got it in minutes before and didn't really know it was fake but I have my doubts. I mean if he had it around for a long time, he should've known. Everybody and their brother knows that Trade Dollars are heavily counterfeited and everybody I know looks at them over and over again. I'm thinking you could probably see something with a standard magnifier, especially under the date. I'm just sayin', maybe I missed something.