1877-s Trade Dollar... Please tell me it's not a fake

While of a different date and mint, this does go to the heart of the subject.

 

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Wow, talk about an extreme details coin!

 

What are we looking at or for . I wouldn't mind owning it though , as the lowest mintage non proof TD .

 

Anybody have ant thoughts about 19Lyds 1877-S ?

 

Gotta agree! Send it back for a refund and don't buy anymore Trade Dollars off of ebay. Trade Dollars are almost always fake and for that reason alone ebay is a terrible place to take a chance.

 

I seldom chime in to threads when I am not familiar with the series in question, but the OP coin has/had me confused but good. The reason I say that is because it looks like a 130 year old coin should - the wear, color and patina look good, or a least passable. most of the Chinese fakes have that fake frosted look to me. I think I know where Books is going with that NGC coin.

 

There are many high end counterfeits of these trade dollars and other US copper and silver coins on eBay lately. The problem is that comparing the obverse/reverse details is not useful as they are 100% spot on due to modern laser etching technology. The edges can still give good clues, but these are rarely shown in eBay pictures.

Here are some from different accounts operated by the same people, I believe all of these to be high end modern fakes, produced in correct purity silver and usually exactly correct weight:

1870 Seated Liberty quarter:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1870-Seated...14?pt=Coins_US_Individual&hash=item19e5b19c8e

1875 CC 20 cent:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1875-CC-Twe...58?pt=Coins_US_Individual&hash=item3a87b8face

1876 20 cent:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1876-20C-TW...29?pt=Coins_US_Individual&hash=item3a861d6ce1

1927 S quarter:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1927-S-Stan...21?pt=Coins_US_Individual&hash=item3a861d5c0d

1836 Gobrecht dollar:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1836-Gobrec...66?pt=Coins_US_Individual&hash=item3a87b881be

Trade dollars:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1878-Trade-Dollar-/261359129370?pt=Coins_US_Individual&hash=item3cda37d31a

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1876-cc-Tra...92?pt=Coins_US_Individual&hash=item3a89218a10

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1877-Trade-...88?pt=Coins_US_Individual&hash=item3a87b8d184

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1877-Trade-...91?pt=Coins_US_Individual&hash=item3a87b8ccd7

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1873-Trade-...62?pt=Coins_US_Individual&hash=item3a87b8c5b2

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1874-Trade-...19?pt=Coins_US_Individual&hash=item3a87b8bdb7

Seated Liberty dollars:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1873-LIBERT...76?pt=Coins_US_Individual&hash=item3a861d1464

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1843-LIBERT...26?pt=Coins_US_Individual&hash=item3a861d181a

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1860-LIBERT...64?pt=Coins_US_Individual&hash=item3a861d41a8

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1842-Seated...84?pt=Coins_US_Individual&hash=item3a87b8d6f8

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1845-Seated...07?pt=Coins_US_Individual&hash=item3f2d102367

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1847-Seated...04?pt=Coins_US_Individual&hash=item3f2d10193c

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1869-Seated...82?pt=Coins_US_Individual&hash=item3a87b8b4fa


Check out these seller's other coins. They include many early US copper cents and 1790's to early 1800's silvers. Scary thing is that a few of these coins are in NGC holders, though generally not the most high priced items they have. They also have a lot of the more commonly seen types of counterfeited foreign coins.

ID's are:
http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&userid=yeehingho&ftab=AllFeedback

http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISA...sspagename=VIP:feedback&ftab=FeedbackAsSeller

http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISA...sspagename=VIP:feedback&ftab=FeedbackAsSeller

http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&userid=lidaqd&ftab=AllFeedback

http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&userid=307michael&ftab=AllFeedback

http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&userid=alallala&ftab=AllFeedback

 

Numismat.... this is too good of a report to tag onto the end of a long thread... it really should be a new topic. I don't believe many CT members are aware of the advances in counterfeit manufacturing. The Chinese have made quantum leaps in this area, and with proper alloy and laser cut dies, these coins are struck to exact specification. But what they are even better at is the artificial aging/toning of newly struck pieces, along with the ability to produce wear patterns consistent with those seen on genuine coins of that era. Of course, there are so many inferior fakes in this country that collectors have become complacent with the idea that they can easily identify same... and when listed on eBay are usually reported and pulled. The ones that remain will sell... and sell for large amounts. Many dealers would identify these as genuine.. and the sellers remain in place to unload more.

I sometimes wonder if the CFe group (Coin Forgery eBay.... eBay's self-appointed watchdog group) is doing their job, or if the fear of incorrectly identifying a genuine coin as counterfeit has hampered their ability as a viable organization. I believe you have only scratched the surface, as these high end fakes find their way into the numismatic community, to be sold (unknowingly as genuine) by reputable dealers.

 

Yes please.

More opinions!

 

To me eyes, and without doing any homework, it strikes me as being a perfectly genuine example of FS-301.

 

It does seem right everywhere , except to me the seriffs on the bottoms of the word Trade Dollar seemed way to thick , that's why I said fake , but in reality I didn't know . Books what do you think of them ? 19Lyds what is it real or fake . Man I thought I knew more on these but they have gotten so good . I fear the only way is to go by die marriages . I wish there was a site devoted to these fakes and the Die marriages of TDs .

 

Where can I look up what FS-301 means ?

 

Cherrypicker variety. It's a repunched date, look at the second seven. I didn't see it either till Books pointed it out.

 

I better start using my cherry pickers guide more often , I did check it in Breens but couldn't find it . Dang Books your good !!!!!

 

I wonder the same, I often report fakes and these high end ones are never removed whereas the more obvious ones are pulled quickly. Interesting how you see these coins in NGC holders on occasion, but I've yet to see one in a PCGS Secure holder.

 

I have seen them in regular PCGS slabs , and I'm sure they will be in their secure slabs before long .

 

By "obverse/reverse details", are you speaking of issues such as wear patterns, toning, circulation, etc, or more physical and unique identifiers?

 

Sadly yes, XRF can be fooled if the coin is really worth the effort to make it pass.

 

Well by details I mean the physical details like placement and style of legends, profile depth of the design, even down to the transverse features between the flat fields and struck features that you would see under high magnification.

Toning and wear pattern are a separate thing and is part science, part art. They're getting very good with replicating appropriate wear patterns, and artificial aging techniques seem to be not far behind.

 

Thank you for addressing this. While I am aware of the abilities of modern counterfeiters (and skill of the past), their capabilities, and the concerns that come with, if literally everything is "100% spot on", including all variations, markers, etc, for all sense and purposes, the coin is genuine. If it is to the point that anything and everything, regardless of study, must be looked upon with suspicion, what reason do we have to continue said study or even be a part of this field?