1877-s Trade Dollar... Please tell me it's not a fake

Instead of hoping others can/will authenticate for you, have you considered spending the time to research it yourself? While not extensive, there is a fair amount of free info available online that, if used wisely, could give a good indication as to if this is a genuine example, especially since you have the coin in-hand. During the weekend, and after seeing your thread, this "nerd" did just that and was able, with a reasonable degree of certainty, to confirm my initial impression.

A wise move for anyone willing to buy raw coins, especially when of a type/series both commonly faked and unfamiliar to them, is to take the time and make the effort to acquire the skill level necessary to do so safely. Regardless of what this specimen turns out to be, you've given yourself an opportunity to take something positive away from this experience.

 

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I deleted my first response; here's my polite one ;-)

Yes, I have considered spending the time to research it myself. In the limited time I have, I believe it is real: correct weight, non-magnetic, no obvious "look" of forgery (at least to a newbie). However, this is a lot of money for me and there are many more people here who know a lot more than I do.

I tried the "silver slide test" but could not find a proper magnet.

I dropped it (I know, I know), and it *sounds* like silver.

What info did you find online? What was your initial impression? I'd love to hear about it. If there are other tests that I didn't find, it'd be great if you posted them here.

 

A specific gravity test comes to mind , but that will just tell you if it;s made from coin silver. After that it would come down to die marriages and I don't think there is a comprehensive list of die marriages for this series like they have for Bust halves and large cents . Next a high powered microscope . Any one who can tell you that they can tell with 100% accuracy just by looking at it is kidding themselves , or they have never seen a very high quality TD fake . Again I will use Tom Delorey as an example as one of the top Numismatists in the US and a writer of many fake Trade Dollar articles he could not tell me one of my Trade Dollars is real or fake , though he leaned towards fake , others have told me it's a Type I/TypeII with a micro S mm 1875 -S .

 

Now he has me paranoid.

Look at this image. Not sure where the website got it.

http://www.tradedollarnut.com/home page/home first links/dates/1877/03674158-copy.jpg


Her left arm is uniform in width, whereas mine is "pinched" at the elbow.

Also, note the dentils on my coin. They are almost all curved one direction or another (especially from 8 o'clock to 10 o'clock) instead of pointing directly towards the center of the coin.

Are these significant differences?

 

No, that is what he'd buy it for--his "worth" is the buy price. As I said previously, but you didn't seem to grasp is that an XF trade dollar (look at mine above--it is a very nice borderline XF-AU that grades as a 45 )was $300. If you look at auctions (eBay and third party) selling price is approximately $250-300 for a nice XF and much more for an AU Trade Dollar. So, if yours is "selling" for $100, that fact, alone, makes it suspicious. No dealer would be that generous with a coin that would make grade--they just wouldn't sell it to you for 50% of market sales value. If he could get $200 for a VF/borderline XF Trade Dollar (from the pictures, it doesn't look anywhere near that grade level), why would he sell it to you for $100?

 

He isn't a dealer. At least he says he isn't.

 

Like I said in my 2nd post , the dentils are usually well formed on Trade dollars , yours aren't . The arm seems wrong to , now that you point it out . It's not looking too good . If you can take it back I would . Instead of 50/50 I'm now at 90/10 that it's a fake . It's your call if you want to pay to have it authenticated .

 

One of my local dealers also questioned the "porousity" of the coin. From what I understand, those are tell-tale signs that the coin was poured and not pressed.

1) Is that definition correct?
2) Do you see any signs of it?

He also thought that some of the scratches looked strange, as if they were made for the purpose of covering something up (such as porousity) or to artificially make it look older, etc.

 

For your consideration: microscopic video.

Please forgive the choppiness and occasional loss of focus.

(this is the obverse)

(this is the reverse)

 

Let's cut to the chase here--the coin is most likely fake due to the price point alone. $100 does NOT buy a nice Trade Dollar of any date in VF-XF condition--even the cleaned "details" ones go for more. Several of my colleagues pointed out fairly sophisticated areas in which the coin is suspicious You, yourself, (the OP) pointed out issues with the weight.

Given that Trade Dollars are the most counterfeited coin ever (with Gold Pandas running a close second), and with China being able to produce very convincing fakes, which way is this headed? Most of the posts on here when a newbie brings a coin and asks about its genuineness are not positive in the outcome. Dear OP--if you have doubts that it is fake, have it graded by one of the two top TPGs--NGC or PCGS. End of a long and probably sad story--someone buys what they think is a nice Trade Dollar while being totally uninformed about the series and gets a counterfeit (my colleague Books pointed out the need to get educated about a series before buying, not after) . Nothing new here. IF YOU DON'T KNOW THE COIN SERIES BUY A SLABBED COIN, or DON't BUY IT. (Caps not for yelling but simply for emphasis).

 

Point of clarification: I initially pointed out the weight at 27.1g which is only a little bit low, and later had 2 other places weigh it at 27.22g, so the weight is dead on.

The seller claims he is a cop in NYC selling a few of his coins. OK, Ok. He's probably not.

 

You are not getting it. The coin is almost definitely fake. If you want to bother, get it graded. I'd just get a nice certified one (I did when I wanted one). Why bother with a raw coin of dubious genuineness.??? You are not contemplating buying it from a reputable ANA dealer, so why expect it to be genuine? It is like buying a "Rolex" in Time Square for $20 and expecting it to be genuine.

 

Ok. I get it now. Sorry for my thick-headedness.

So now that I believe it's fake, what proof will eBay require in order to get my money back?

Will I need to send it to ANACS/PCGS/etc.? Do I need *something* written?

 

Or do I email the guy directly with these findings?

 

Have it graded, and submit the before and after results to eBay. They will do nothing, and figure if it does end up being counterfeit, you're out the money, but have learned an important collector's lesson. We have all learned lessons like this the hard way, so don't feel bad.

 

Seller agreed to do a refund. That would be better than getting it graded, wouldn't it?

I think I just need to send it back with delivery confirmation and maybe insurance?

(even though it's not *worth* $100, that's what I paid).

 

Yes I would get a refund, and do more research before buying a Trade Dollar.

 

Will do much research. And buy slabbed. Thanks.

 

Definitely the way to go . Now look at the dentils . Yours are square and straight , all mine that I bought slabbed are more rounded . I guess they figure you really aren't going to look at them . Glad you got a refund , and the only way you will get a coin at more than 50% off is if it's fake or hot . Either way someone loses .

 

Or simply keep the coin as a reminder. If you don't know a coin series, spend the money on a book to learn about it. Believe me, you'll be much better off in the long run.

Also, learn about the different TPG's. There are the top 2 and then the rest.