I like Cleaned Coins and you should to thread

If you had been a member of this forum for more than a couple of months you would, like everyone else, be well aware that I most definitely do not completely side with the TPGs. In fact you would be hard pressed to find anybody who finds fault with the TPGs more often than I do.

I am not siding with the TPGs in this instance either, nor am I defending them. Rather what I am doing is telling the truth, defending the truth, telling things like they really are. The scenarios I described above and people posting about them have occurred so often that they defy counting.

As for qualifying my statements, what do you think things like this mean ?

Of course it wasn't the TPG's fault at all, but the owner just about always refuses to believe that.

Did you miss the words "just about" ?

Or this one -

The same kind of thing often happens .....

What do think "often happens" means ?

Or this -

As a general rule people will always blame someone else for their own mistakes or shortcomings before they will ever blame themselves.

All of those are qualifiers, limitations, that clearly point out that it doesn't happen all the time but it happens a lot. That it is commonplace. And it is.

I'm sitting here chuckling to myself right now at the irony. But you probably don't understand why. You see, what often happens with many of my comments about the TPGs is that when newer members or those who don't know me read them I often get flack because I am - beating up on the TPGs, blaming THEM for everything, over-grading, being too lenient with problem issues, etc etc etc. And yet here in this thread we have exact opposite occurring. It baffles the mind

 

If by scans you mean a picture, what good would that do ? None. Why ? Because even though you take a picture of a coin and it shows some marks or hairlines, if you take another picture with just slightly different lighting or even a tiny change in the angles, you will see other marks or hairlines that you did not see in the first picture. Or, some of the marks/hairlines that you did see in the first picture will not show up in the second picture.

Among people who know coins, this is common knowledge. That is why you only judge coins when you can see them in hand. That is why every numismatic book there is on the subject, and every numismatic expert, will tell you that you need to view and judge coins under a good light and while slowly rolling, tilting, and turning the coin under that light. Because only by doing that can you see everything there is to see about a coin and render a valid judgement on it.

Pictures coins and what they show or don't show prove nothing about whether a mark, hairlines, scratches, whatever, was there or not.

 

No, I have never heard of a "known" case - key word being known. Does that mean it's impossible that it could happen ? No, of course not. But in all the years that the conservation services have existed and of my being involved with and reading coin forums I have never once run across or heard of a valid claim where a TPG conservation service damaged a coin they worked on. Not one.

Have I heard people claim that the TPG damaged their coin ? You bet, hundreds and maybe thousands of times. But in every instance it was a case of the person making the claim being mistaken and putting blame where it did not belong.

Now you know me Richie, and have for quite a while. Do you not think that if there was a valid case of a TPG damaging a coin that I would be among the first to shout it from the rafters ? Have you even known me not to blame a TPG for something when they were deserving of that blame ? Have you ever known me to be shy or hesitant when it comes to criticizing the TPGs for some of the things they do ?

You were still just a whippersnapper when I wrote my first article criticizing the TPGs, their policies, their habits, and the need for change within the industry. But at the same time I will not blame them for things they do not do. And you, and anybody and everybody who knows me, knows that all too well.

Do you not ?

 

Sorry, but even back when Kasia posted that I could easily see the issues in the first pictures - her before pictures. I'm amazed that others apparently cannot.

 

But that's my point Mike, the toning is there in the original pictures. Did it come back worse than it was ? Yes, it became even more visible. But it was already there.

 

It's a situation similar to what happens when you send a coin in to have dirt/grime and or ugly toning removed. Once the coin undergoes the cleaning/conservation process you can see the damage that was hidden under the dirt/grime or toning that you could not see before. That damage was already there, NCS didn't do it or cause it.

With Kasia's coin there was something already on the coin before she ever sent it to NCS. That something that can easily be seen on both the obv and the rev, whatever it was, reacted with the chemicals that NCS used. That chemical reaction caused that something (probably some other chemical residue used to produce the toning seen in the original pics) to change colors and become much more visible.

Now none of that was NCS's fault. They have no way of knowing what chemicals or substances may already be on the coin when they get it. And they make no guarantees for how a coin will turn out for that reason. In fact they warn submitters that things may not go well.

When NCS tries to conserve a coin all they can do is guess about what chemicals to use to try and improve the looks of the coin, or prevent further damage being caused by whatever is already on the coin. Yes it's an educated guess but it is still a guess and they know it. And that's why they give you the warnings they do.

Now you say their process wasn't neutralized or didn't perform properly. Well, saying it didn't perform properly is obvious given the outcome. But the risk that the process will not perform properly is always there and that risk can cannot be negated. And submitters agree to accept that risk when they send a coin in to NCS. In other words the submitter agrees to take a chance, agrees to gamble on the outcome.

Given that, how can anyone possibly blame NCS and say it is their fault for what happened ? Answer - you can't.

 

If stored in a true vacuum, it's absolutely possible to preserve silver. But since we don't have any ..........

Well, that depends on the time frame you are talking about. With proper storage you can preserve your coins, at least for your lifetime. And possibly the lifetimes of your children or heirs. And no cleaning, harsh or otherwise, is necessary.

edit - One other thing, unless you utilize proper storage methods you will be cleaning your coins a lot, meaning quite often, in order to remove the new toning. And repeated toning will definitely harm your coins.

Point being, cleaning is not the answer. Proper storage is.