05' D Oregon quarter shattered die???

Ok' I'll put you down in the 99% column, but you are mistaken.

 

Log in or Sign up to hide this ad.

Mike,

Thanks for chiming in. Given that the second set of photos seem to indicate incuse areas, and the OP says that the areas are incuse, what would be your assessment of that?

 

I agree with you, I always see coins with die breaks that have been struck well after the die/'s have broken, they are raised cracks thus creating ridges filling the holes in the die's. What I'm saying is where are all the "first strike" broken die coins? That one strike that starts it all? The one's that were there for the initial collision before the pieces of die actually broke loose? The die must be released from the press at least once to create these voids does it not?

 

playpossom just like I told you earlier dried glue or another clear dried substance will easily trick folks . more than likely what may be confusing you is the clear glue on your coin if this is what it is and I'm willing to bet on it. anything clear and raised up on a coin will look exactly like it is a incuse place. if you don't believe me put a drop of clear water on a coin then look at under a loupe. if this would have been me I would have found something sharp like a needle and checked this out really good.

 

You'll notice that the the upper portion of the pine tree on the far right seems completely normal despite the fact that it is overlain by one of your "incuse" areas. This is quite impossible. Also, another commentator noticed that some of the glue is flaking and peeling up in a photo taken at an oblique angle. I see this as well. I have to conclude that any incuse appearance is simply a visual illusion.

 

With all due respect, I know how to check for glue etc...there is nothing forign on this coin. I'll bet you a Silver Eagle if you want to make it interesting??? I'll send the coin to Jody for better pics and a neutral opinion.

 

I agree with you, except there is no glue! I'll go to my grave saying the same thing.

So humor me...If there is no glue, then this cannot be an impossible error, after all we are looking at it. So there has to be a logical explanation for it. I know a thing or two about metals and how the react under extreme pressure's. Have you ever seen an engine that has "scattered" ? No two are alike! I know that hardened steel can do some crazy things when it decides to let loose as it is very hard, yet extremely brittle. Just because this damage does not resemble other shattered die examples does not (imo) mean it is impossible.

As I said before, show me the coin that was in the press when the die shattered, not one that was struck later with an unnoticed, already broken die.

Can anyone show us/me an example of such a coin?

 

My avatar was struck through a fragment of metal that was caught in the chamber and struck multiple times prior to my coin being struck. No two strike through errors are alike, even when the same obstruction causes multiple error coins; that is because the object will change position from one coin to the next.

As far as cracks in the dies go, they will remain the SAME from one coin to the next until the crack expands farther. The same crack will be exhibited on many coins until it progresses from one rim of the coin to another, at which time the die is broken and the damage is so pronounced that mint QC personnel usually spot it and pick it out.

Here are a couple of threads I recently started on some finds, for you to compare:

http://www.cointalk.com/threads/15-piece-1958-1c-die-crack-progression-set.237705/

http://www.cointalk.com/threads/1961d-lmc-new-die-variety-discovery.235507/

As you can see, before a die shatters it is only cracked. The cracks are raised on the coin and progress until the die 'shatters'. Your coin shows no die cracks; therefore it could not possibly be a shattered die.

 

I fully understand the progression of the cracks getting more pronounced as the die deteriorates.

I believe this coin was struck through a piece of debris that actually made the die face shatter immediatly in the pattern you see. If you look closley at the pics you will see all edges are crisp with some area's showing the very begining's fracture. If the die shattered on this very strike, due to debris, all the pieces of the die would just barely move while the press is fully closed and the planchet locked in the collar. At this point there is no place for the fragments to go to leave CUD's. When the press opened, this coin was ejected and only then would any pieces of the broken die fall out to make room for cuds. I'm sure if this happened, by looking at the fracture lines on this coin, the next planchet would have really taken the die to the next level of destruction and would have been found when they shut down the line. Well.... I believe they missed this one!

This is my theory anyway!

Based on the fact that there is no glue !
No major damage to the devices
No clash marks.
All damage is definatly restricted to the face of the die.
One large and clean indentation, in a bare field, giving an initial impact point from a foreign object, that was capable of creating stress fracturing of the die face fractions of a second before the press was fully closed,
And o yeah did I mention... NO GLUE!)

The coin is on it's way to Jody (priority) for better pictures and verification of no foreign substance on the surfaces. I'm looking forward to clearing my credibility round these parts!

 

Which explanation is it.... That, or this?

Here you seem to understand that if anything were to give it would be the planchet. Certainly the planchet would give out before the die ever would.

IF it is a strikethrough, the not-raised or incuse cracks you see around the incuse anomaly in the field would be the planchet itself cracking; not the die.

 

There also appears to be glue on the obverse, between Washington's head and the M of AMERICA. I also seem to detect a bubble within the dried glue.

 

The planchet is soft and will give, absorbing a great deal of pressure, but only to a point. Imagine blowing up a balloon in a glass jar, same basic concept, eventually it will run out of places to go. I know the mint presses slam down on the coins at very fast rate and super high pressure, I believe it is around 20 tons? Try slamming two hammers together face to face, somewhere amongst the shattered chunks you will see something called pressure flaking. The edges of some of the pieces will be sharper than surgeons scalple's. That is how thin hardened steel can shatter too, a few microns. Now if you were to try and contain all that pressure from going outward, and it had no where else to go, it will find it's own week points and damage will be more severe and localized to the faces of the hammers. It would also be feesable for the pieces to remain attached to each other due to surface tension between the erraticly formed pieces (a mechanical bond rather than a molecular). Plus the heat created with these extreme pressures could also give the fragments some bite to each other from the metal expanding naturally.

If a planchet error why then no damage to the devices?
Same question for a strike through?

I dont believe the planchet itself would crack unless it was broadstruck, or out of collar, that would be more of a stress tear than a crack. Please correct me if I am wrong.

 

Didn't I see you about a year ago on here asking about a another coin with glue dried on it ? IMO this is most definately what you have here from what I can gather from the photos. did you try to scrape a tiny piece of this off to check it out ?

 

I'd give you 26c for it ('cuz I'm such a sweetheart) but can't do that if I have to pay for postage.

 

No, this is the first time I have posted this coin. This is also the first time with any question of glue on any coin etc I have posted.

I dont understand why no one will take my word on this so we can move on, so I will have a trusted member clear my name. I assure you this coin has not been scraped to find glue, or any other coating, you are looking at the coins surface, as it came from the mint, nothing else. I sent it off to Jody, he will get it on Friday to take better pics and verify NO GLUE!
Believe me, I know this coin will not make me rich no matter what it is, and I in no way want to anger anyone on this site. I am here to learn, and if I find something interesting, I will show it to you all and describe it to the best of my abilities, all the while respecting your opinions and critisizms as I always have. But understand, I will not lie to you about it! Thats not the way I do business and there is no profit in a phony error! I would not take things this far on a painted Quarter.

 

The coin is on the way to me. When I get it, I'll image it and post the results. Let's see what they reveal. I have no reason to doubt the op when he says the areas are incuse.

 

The coin is on the way to me. When I get it, I'll image it and post the results. Let's see what they reveal. I have no reason to doubt the op when he says the areas are incuse.

 

I have no idea how that posted 4 times.

 

YAY, I have a friend!

Thanks Jody!

One more for the sceptics.

 

I really can't make anything new out of the newly posted photos...