Coin restoration: New trend by TPGers?

Discussion in 'Coin Chat' started by Bart9349, Sep 27, 2013.

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  1. Bart9349

    Bart9349 Junior Member

    I see PCGS is now doing "coin restoration."

    http://www.pcgs.com/restoration/

    Of course, NGC has been doing that for some time.

    I'm not sure whether this is good or bad. But will the doctored coins pass the PCGS "sniff test"?

    The times are a changin'.


    guy
     
    Bart9349, Sep 27, 2013
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  3. Galen59

    Galen59 Gott helfe mir

    B.S.
     
    Galen59, Sep 28, 2013
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  4. silv

    silv Active Member

    4% cut, interesting to do it that way. Sorta makes sense..? Seems like it could be good service for certain situations.
     
    silv, Sep 28, 2013
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  5. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator


    Based on your comments I don't think you understand exactly what the "sniff test" does, and does not do. 'Course, it seems a whole lot of other folks don't understand either.
     
    GDJMSP, Sep 28, 2013
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  6. coleguy

    coleguy Coin Collector

    Wasn't it designed to supposedly determine if a coin had been doctored, or rather, restored? Pretty sure that's what their press release stated.
     
    coleguy, Sep 28, 2013
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  7. Coinman1974

    Coinman1974 Research, Research, Research

    smh, Basically they are cleaning coins, but in a more professional way? and why should one customer pay 4% of say $50.00 for the same service as someone with a $10.000 coin? Not a fan of that at all.
     
    Coinman1974, Sep 28, 2013
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  8. WLH22

    WLH22 Well-Known Member

    Very much against it. If I do it the coin comes back details, cleaned. If I'm willing to pay them to do it then all is fine and the coin grades out just fine.
     
    WLH22, Sep 28, 2013
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  9. -jeffB

    -jeffB Greshams LEO Supporter

    If there's risk involved in the process, they'll want to charge a fee proportionate to their liability.
     
    -jeffB, Sep 28, 2013
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  10. Coinman1974

    Coinman1974 Research, Research, Research

    That does make some sense, I suppose. But the idea of cleaning coins? What will future generations of coin collectors think of us? It is just something I do not agree with. However I do cling to the older ways. Not something I will be getting that is for sure.
     
    Coinman1974, Sep 28, 2013
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  11. Bart9349

    Bart9349 Junior Member

    I'm sorry. Maybe you can clear this up for me.

    guy
     
    Bart9349, Sep 28, 2013
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  12. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator


    Doctored and restored are completely different things. And there are many different types of doctoring, and many different types of restoration.

    The terms restored, restoration, conserved, conservation, and yes cleaning - they are all synonyms - by definition mean that the coin was returned to its original state without leaving any traces of that conservation or restoration. And original state does not mean freshly minted,it only means that contaminants and/or toning were removed from the coin, but not necessarily both were removed. For example, you can rinse, clean, wash a coin in acetone, distilled water, or xylene, and no traces of those chemicals will remain on the coin. You can even dip a coin in a commercial coin dip and no traces of that dip will remain on the coin. Coins treated in this way have been conserved, restored, cleaned.

    That said, the PCGS sniffer can and will detect some types of doctoring, but only some types of doctoring and definitely not all of them. Basically the only thing the PCGS sniffer is capable of doing is detecting traces of elements on a coin that are not supposed to be there on the coin. Examples of the kind of things that the sniffer can detect would be putty that is used to fill in contact marks, scratches and the like on the surface of the coin. It can also detect traces of oils, soaps, and some toning chemicals that are left behind on the coin by doctoring.

    Simply put, as I said above, the only thing the PCGS sniffer is capable of doing is detecting traces of elements on a coin that are not supposed to be there on the coin. And that is the only thing it can do.

    No, the PCGS sniffer cannot and will not detect that acetone, distilled water, xylene, or commercial dips, and some other solvents, were used on a coin. NGC and PCGS won't tell us exactly what they use to "conserve or restore" coins, but whatever it is that they use it leaves no traces on the coin. So the sniffer cannot detect anything because there is nothing there to detect.
     
    GDJMSP, Sep 28, 2013
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  13. ldhair

    ldhair Clean Supporter

    I'm glad we have these types of services. The average person is going to kill a coin if they try to work on it. These services are better at it than most.

    The first issue is being able to pick coins that can be helped. Most can't do that and they make the problem worse.
     
    ldhair, Sep 28, 2013
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  14. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator


    You cling to the older ways ? You sure ? I ask because cleaning coins is about as old it gets. For centuries collectors all over the world cleaned their coins, just about all of them did. Even the curators in museums would routinely go through the entire collection in their care, rub and wipe all of the coins down with rags and polishing cloths to make them "look better". Or wash them them in harsh cleansers, chemicals and soaps.

    It has only been in recent years that these methods were done away with by collectors. Even today many of the world's museums, even our own Smithsonian, still practice what I described above.

    So I think what you cling to are the new ways, where harsh and improper cleaning is no longer used or acceptable. I also think you need to realize and understand that using some means to clean coins is perfectly acceptable. Even dipping coins in commercial coin dips is perfectly acceptable. But it has to be done properly so as not to damage the coin.
     
    GDJMSP, Sep 28, 2013
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  15. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator


    Sure, the PCGS coin sniffer can only do what I described in post #11. And none of the other processes used in the Secure Service can detect proper conservation, restoration, cleaning either. Because there is nothing to detect.

    edit -

    Read and watch to see what the sniffer can and cannot do - http://www.collectorscorner.com/marketnews/?name=coinsmarketnews68

    http://www.pcgs.com/News/Pcgs-Secure-Plustrade-Part-Ii-Featuring-Coin-Sniffer
     
    GDJMSP, Sep 28, 2013
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  16. Coinman1974

    Coinman1974 Research, Research, Research

    OK, yes I suppose you are right. I do cling to the new way of handling coins. I highly disagree with cleaning coins. However I suppose if done properly and does not damage a coin then what is the issue? Still not something I would ever consider. Thanks for correcting my btw, lol
     
    Coinman1974, Sep 28, 2013
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  17. WLH22

    WLH22 Well-Known Member

    On another coin forum I posted a picture of a coin. A reply was made that the coin looked dipped so it would receive a details grade. Now here I'm reading that dipping coins is acceptable to the TPG's. Does someone have experience with this. Does dipping mean a coin will receive a details grade?
     
    WLH22, Sep 28, 2013
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  18. desertgem

    desertgem Senior Errer Collecktor Supporter

    read the important part of the post

    If a person can determine that a coin has been dipped, it has been damaged by the process(s) . A dip is an acid, and it removes the top layer of the surface that produces the luster. Do the acid process 1 time too long, or several times ( accumulated too long) and you have damaged the coin. There are several threads searchable to explain the key factors. I should add, that many if not most bright silver coins have been dipped at least once in the past. An experienced dipper can tell if there is possibly enough left to do it one more time. An inexperienced person , may not, and do the fatal dip...
     
    desertgem, Sep 28, 2013
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  19. BadThad

    BadThad Calibrated for Lincolns

    Definitely not a "new" trend, PCGS has been doing it for years....even before they started to advertise and commercialize it.
     
    BadThad, Sep 28, 2013
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  20. WLH22

    WLH22 Well-Known Member

    Ok, thanks. The surface is not damaged. I guess in his mind any dipping is not acceptable and that is why he said that.
     
    WLH22, Sep 28, 2013
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  21. medoraman

    medoraman Supporter! Supporter

    Good points Jim, Doug, and everyone. I always have a problem with the subject of cleaning. "Do not clean your coins" took years to drill into inexperienced collectors, with tons of coins saved. So, I always have mixed feelings about educating people coins can be cleaned if you are willing to educate yourself and do it properly.

    Its almost the same as the whole toning issue.
     
    medoraman, Sep 28, 2013
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