Hephthalite: What can you say about this one?

Specifically, I'd like to know the meaning of the marks/characters in the right field and what was missing at the left. Was the incuse looking reverse produced by a die or, perhaps, being struck with a leather punch that forced to metal into the obverse? Mine is not very nice due to the half flat strike but it is what was available when I was in the mood.

Do you agree with:
HEPHTHALITE: Nezak Malka, ca. 476-570 AD and the top letter is Sri (honorable, sir, king)?

 

Log in or Sign up to hide this ad.

Not being an expert and purely on guess I would suspect the coin was not made with enough metal. I believe there is nothing in the obverse left field besides the remnants of the headdress. The dating might be right but I believe the Nezak were later around 650-700 AD. Your coin possess a similar bust to the silver coins attributed to Alchon Huns. I think this would favor the 480's date. I noticed there is a lot of guess work being applied to these coins. I believe these traditionally have two - 8 spoked wheels in the upper reverse fields and the fire altar and attendants motif. I have looked at a lot of similar coins and have developed a sound interest in these. I am not the best person to pose theories but to me they make sense. Maybe Medoraman man who knows a lot about these guys can add more.

 

See:
http://www.academia.edu/880242/Coinage_of_the_Nezak
Type 150 looks close but the one with closest obverse is var.3 while var.2 shows the blank reverse. This reference dates them to late 6th century and mentions a large hoard coming on the market in the 1990's.

 

This coin has always been troubling. Just from the outset Doug I will say I never agreed with Nezak attribution, unless very late, (which we will get tto). Just from the beginning though, if you look at this coin what do you see? A coin the size of a drachm but poorly done and in copper. What style does it imitate closest? Does it have that pseudo indian curved style like other nezak coins or look more like upright Alchon coins? Another problem with a nezak attribution is they HAD a bronze coinage system already.

So, what the coin is telling us its eitber a debased Alchon coin, (which would also be nezak and kidarite since by this time the remnants joined together in swat valley), or a alchon bronze, (doubtful due to quality), or someone else just imitating an alchon coin, (poorly). In any case, I reject the name nezak for these.

Yes, there seemes a lot of these 15 years ago. I think I own ten or so. Btw, the coin does come with some evidence of a reverse outside the incuse, so i have no idea how they were struck.

Sorry no pics, doing this from my phone.

 

I want to understand the right obverse character. I don't think that is Pahvali, but Brahmi, suggesting a more Eastern origin. I read the article you posted yet I still agree with Medoraman, these bare a strong similarity to Alchon coinage, rather then the 8th century Nezak. I must admit am just as clueless as 90 % of people out there, just a little more exposed. So my opinion is well let's say to be taken at face value.

 

To me the offering in the hands are similar to offerings on Vahran II issues with ahuramazda offering something to the king. In my eyes, it s an offering of some type. BUT, some Alchon coinage had this, so I believe its more likely a derivative of Alchon coinage than directly from Sasanid prototypes directly.

 

Fascinating !!

 

Btw, i forgot to comment on your title directly Doug. My comment would be its not hepthalite at all, but most likely hunnic. More specifically Red Huns.

Not trying to be critical, please understand. I have a lot of flips to change too, since way too many dealers call anything hunnic Hepthalite or white huns. Either from old references, it sounds cooler, or lack of knowledge, most of this material on the market is attributed to hepthalites. Hepthalite coins are not terribly common, save maybe c/m khusro II. True hepthalites never made their own style coinage, but various red huns did.

 

http://www.numismall.com/acc/Large-...00-AD-Alchon-Huns-Hunnic-tribes-w1530811.html


The coin looks very similar to this!!!

 

Yes, and I like the attribution better. However, I half agree, half disagree with the history posted with this coin. Its so messed up I wonder if its a copy/paste job from wikipedia. I have posted on wikipedia that the entry is so bad there they should start over.

I won't get into what is wrong with that history unless someone is interested.

 

<~ interested!!!

 

This is what we get when a civilization is based on the theory that outsiders need to be killed on sight and written history is not worth doing. This is the same coin (Em. 150) regardless of attribution.

 

http://www.grifterrec.com/coins/huns/huns.html

Tom Mallon had these issues under ALchon Huns Doug. Also, look at Gobl 73 on this page. THis is a fairly standard Alchon issue with a hand holding out an offering like your coin. I never noticed Tom had them listed under Alchon issues, but I 100% would agree with that.

Regarding your postulation about civilizations, you are completely true but it seems to be the human condition. Most of Central Asian history is long lost due to such actions. We are dealing with scraps of info to piece it together. Heck, the greatest insight into Sogdia has been the "sogdian letters", half burned random letters found in a Chinese garbage dump.

 

Again an interesting addition....this reminds me of the scarcity of the written record when referring to the Indo-Greek Kings, what do we have a Buddhist mention of Menander and a tax receipt from Antimachus? All the information simply disappeared when the affairs of Asia stopped affecting the affairs in Europe. The rest was pieced together from their coins, of which only the obverse could be read, the reverse Kharosthi was deciphered in the 19th century. These are truly fascinating coins, especially when so much of European and Chinese history is very well recorded, by comparison.

Imagine in the future people getting all the facts wrong, and thinking that Richard Nixon was assassinated by Abraham Lincoln in 1792. Mind boggling.

 

Oh Doug now you have to rotate your reverse photo 45 deg to the left...

 

You may imagine whatever you wish but I'll go with the reverse being blank as listed by Tom Mallon so my image is based on the incuse.

The contents of the hand has been analyzed quite intently. On mine I see the 'wheat or rye" and the drooping "barley" but am not sure about the "hops". My coin has a rather clear Sri so perhaps it is not such a bad one after all.

 

No, not bad at all. They come much worst, trust me.

They would be an interesting subcollection, since there do appear slight variations on the obverse. On the reverse, yes many are blank effectively, but I have seen some where there appears to be designs on the edgesof the reverse. That is why I said I am unsure how struck. Maybe the "design" I see sometimes was just impression from leather, maybe they engraved some incuse dies, and not others, I simply do not know. They are pretty thin, though, that is why incuse reverse was needed to bring up the obverse.

 

I would go with Tom Mallon as well, who would go with ancientnoob?

Don't you wish this guy was on the forums so we could ask questions?

 

Don't we all wish his health will return to the point that he can like he did only a few years ago?
http://www.grifterrec.com/index.html
http://www.sfgate.com/music/article/Tom-Fest-to-support-Tom-Mallon-4310890.php

 

I am going to admit I know nothing about the coin - but dang your imagination can run wild with the obverse image with the "king" figure. I can just picture all sorts of nice and naughty sorts of things in that coin!