Chinese: A few Cash arrived today

The head of the "giraffe" is above the hole?

 

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Sorry I mentioned it:

 

Approximately, yes.

 

Thanks for the extra effort, Doug ...

Yup, now I see the giraffe (eh-heh-heh) ...... yah okay, I admit that Doug having to zoom-in on the giraffe is a bit like looking for the "cheat-answer" in the back of the ol' crossword book!

 

The denomination is "20 Cash" and the coin is dated 1931 (Republic of China 20th Year).

I was not familiar with this coin so I did a quick search on some Chinese websites.

As best I can tell, the consensus among Chinese collectors is that this coin is a "fabrication" or what we would probably refer to as a "fantasy" coin.

According to this Chinese coin forum, no authentic specimens of this coin exist.

Of course, there are still those who try to sell this "rare" coin. This website, for example, has one for sale for about $8,140 (RMB 50,000).

Gary

 

The coin looks normal in regard to diameter, calligraphy, metal color, patina, etc.

I agree that copper was removed by filing the reverse side a long time ago.

I have a Chinese coin reference that documents 37 varieties of this coin. None, even including those privately-made, are as light as 2.49 grams.

Gary

 

I enjoy collecting and attributing cash coins as well, I just wish we had a few more enthusiasts here on Cointalk or even a few newbies willing to learn or unlearn what they have learned. Every time I post something having to do with cash coins almost no one reads or responds save a few members like "manymore", "medoraman" and David Hartill.

Or maybe it's just no one likes me or my postings. Hmmmm....

 

While I can not speak for others, I believe the problem I have had every time I start to get interested in cash is that I run across situations that seem to be extremely important to specialists that either I do not understand or that seem insignificant to my way of looking at the situation. Not reading Chinese may also be a problem. For one thing it limits me to books like Hartill written in English.

For example, in post #10 of this thread I showed two examples of Zheng Long Hartill 18.40 which is listed as a rather common '14' ($5) coin. Hartill 18.41 is listed as the same coin except that the top character 'Zheng' has a short extension of the bottom line to the left which would require the character to be drawn with 5 strokes rather than 4. This makes the coin a rarity 6 ($250) item. I might understand some of this if that fine point of calligraphy served to separate the coins by mints or dates but all I see is a $245 1 mm bump. Now I admit that the coins I understand better (Roman) have some fly speck variations (like the six variations on Tiberius Tribute Penny chairs) but usually these are accompanied by something like mint ID or at least something that catalog authors might bother to explain. I'm not saying that I would pay extra for an 18.41 if I did understand it (I don't pay extra for special mints in Sasanian - just to mention another language that I don't read) but seeing such things just makes me feel stupid.

My cash collection includes common 'junk' coins found in bulk lots (mostly Northern Song) and a few 'special' coins I sought out because the Emperor was a big name (built the Forbidden City, did something particularly interesting in the sense that Roman collectors favor Caligula, etc.). What I have not become convinced of yet is what I might add to my benefit (education, interest???) if I turned my 100 different cash holding into 200.




A recent addition (also filed off, it seems) is this Xuan De (1433-35 AD) which I wanted to match the 19th century replica bell from my wife's collection. The two center characters on the top band of the bell match the coin's top and bottom. These bells are rather common but I have never been able to find out if there is an original or why the later bell makers felt the need to make so many bells inscribed 'Made in the time of Xuan De Ming'.

If a cash collector here could put it in words, I would be interested in hearing what it is about cash that makes them appeal to your collecting instincts.

 

Doug, I tend to be more accepting of the minutia of cash coins than of other series. In this instance, the tiny calligraphic varieties do in fact serve to distinguish various mints and dates, but, unlike their western counterparts, were placed intentionally by the engravers to serve this purpose. Their meaning has since been lost.

I am often amazed that some varieties of Japanese cash are identified to mints only because collectors at the time obtained samples and recorded the differences.

 

I agree its tough. Most of the power of the variation of the lettering lost on us since its not our language. However, i view this similarly to the iconography of the byzantines. That is also a foreign language to us, but through readings of history and religious scholarship, it can become clearer to us.

Otoh, i am with you Doug that sometimes a nail mark simply looks like a nail mark. I never pay them much attention, though I know some specialists who do. Chinese cash is a large enough field to have room for those who wish to pursue such things, but i find simply major types enough of a pursuit.

 

Aww, I like your posts Joe. Perhaps the seemingly disinterest may be a misinterpretation of another cause, in this case potential fakes which could leave a few collectors worried here. Personally I am, despite this I'm still interested and like to look at such coins being posted.

 

I'm interested, and read the posts on them, but I don't know much about them.

 

You mentioned the mint marks on Qing coins were giving you problems.I am uploading a pdf of a database I am working on (slowly).

I hope it is useful

John

 

It looks more like a seahorse ro me

But then I am an old beach bum so I am biased.

John

 

welcome JCH => 80 year ol' Beachbum (you're livin' my dream-life!!)



... do you collect ancients? (coins ... not ladies)

 

I am an avid collector of Chinese, Vietnamese, Korean and Japanese cash. I also collect charms, knives, bridge money, etc. I think it is a fascinating coin because the basic design runs for nearly 2300 years - round coin, square hole, characters surrounding the hole. You could have a collection that stretches from 1911 all the way back to around 300 BC with essentially the same design. In my mind, the key to a nice cash piece is being able to easily identify the characters. After that, I would think that you would want coins that do not have other holes or missing pieces. Further down the list, I would say that any permanent metal damage (really unsightly corrosion, etc.) would be undesirable. Wear and scratches and the like give the coin a little charisma and prove that it had a usefulness. Concerning your coins with no reverses and significantly lighter weights, some of these are often called floaters. They are probably counterfeits using one side of the mold. It's hard to say from pictures, but as long as there have been coins, people have found ways to "manipulate" them. I have enjoyed collecting cash coins and have amassed a pretty decent amount of them. Lately, I have been concentrating on the larger cash pieces and more unique pieces that have a neat story. Be careful, though. After many years of doing this, I have branched out to items like cash swords, cash trees, cash figures, etc. The bug can get you. I look forward to talking about cash and helping in any way I can with IDs or answering any questions.

 

I started collecting all varieties of Asian coins about 1957 with a few oddments and sputtered along at opportunistic collecting until about 1985 when I turned to my academic career's demands. I picked numismatics up again with an interest in the Greater Indic region. On retirement in 2014 I returned to my numismatic interests again and am still flailing away at it. My areas are always pre-modern with one exception (Tibet). The greatest strengths are: Ancient India (mostly punch-marked ca, 600-300 BCE) China (everything up to about 1900) Nepal (mostly Licchavi and Malla periods) and Greater Gandhara-Taxila (mostly pre Kushan). There is one "draft" of a publication on Kushan Numismatic Iconography (Available at:

https://www.academia.edu/13549386/Kushan_Numismatic_Iconography_Preliminary_Study_ )

Regrettably, I do not own any of the beautiful gold coins published in the study.

Current Numismatic activities,

1) Cataloging the entire collection (2-3K coins),
2) Researching the historical context of Indian punch marked and their iconological symbolism. For the Glutton for academic punishment: https://www.academia.edu/13631948/The_Vajra_from_Vedic_times_to_the_Present
3) Photographing numismatic material (mostly my own) (see attached image of a Tang dynasty Qian Yuan zhong bao [Hartill 14.101] showing minor granular azurite
corrosion